"They were bashing" has never been a valid reason. It was not valid while gods existed, and there's no reason it would be valid now.
EDIT: And the bit I pasted specifically mentions war?
'They were bashing' is a highly simplified 'they were working against my efforts to blow up their altar'.
And I covered that. Bashing for communion/essence was not a valid reason, but raising and defiling shrines was.
To correlate: Bashing for faith/belief is not a valid reason, but desecrating is. There is no concept of area control or shrine dominance, so no equivalent to raising shrines.
The real problem is that the system doesn't provide you with a valid thing to target people for, other than desecration or attacking you. Complain about that, but don't attack randoms for bashing.
EDIT: Grammar
I am the righteous one... the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
We could split hairs all day - technically, a 'roleplay reason' is present, and that reason is 'The Wild Hunt has declared war and has made demands'. People have gotten away with flimsier reasons, and the whole 'try to resolve it' thing supercedes that nonsense 99 out of 100 issues. Seraphyne, and presumably Ellen (considering Seraphyne copy and pasted Ellen's issue to Azefel, to me), made no shot at resolving it in character. No retaliation. No 'why?'. Nothing.
I feel it important to note that the issue that I sent Azefel (and the issue that Seraphyne sent you, which was indeed copy/pasted) are not seeking administrative penalties for anyone. They are inquiring about the rules regarding the situation. You know this full well, because the last sentence of the issue is: "This issue is merely a query, I do not wish Azefel to suffer any sort of penalty for it."
"They were bashing" has never been a valid reason. It was not valid while gods existed, and there's no reason it would be valid now.
EDIT: And the bit I pasted specifically mentions war?
'They were bashing' is a highly simplified 'they were working against my efforts to blow up their altar'.
And I covered that. Bashing for communion/essence was not a valid reason, but raising and defiling shrines was.
To correlate: Bashing for faith/belief is not a valid reason, but desecrating is. There is no concept of area control or shrine dominance, so no equivalent to raising shrines.
The real problem is that the system doesn't provide you with a valid thing to target people for, other than desecration or attacking you. Complain about that, but don't attack randoms for bashing.
EDIT: Grammar
Not to mention the fact that portable altars and sewers essentially make this a laughing matter. Most players do not physically visit their altar, so it's not like I can attack them on their altar by 'catching them in the act'. As well, I use a great deal of moderation here, so I think well within my limits as a player to do what I did.
I am not really going to 'complain' about the system - is it defunct? Yeah. The whole system is, barring the 'creative' part. That doesn't give Ellen a free card to log on to the forums and complain that we are trying to make something out of nothing, when it comes to this system. Death is a laughable, streamlined process. What do you really lose for dying? I hate to say it, but encouraging them to think they are 'in the right' for issuing me or Azefel is only going to also teach them that they don't need thicker skin about something so inconsequential as dying in a fight or getting jumped - also that they don't need to solve their own problems, which makes the whole 'conflict between sects' issue even more of a pain in the ass.
No thanks. I think we'll be just fine.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Choosing to desecrate an altar doesn't give you the right to kill people who are bashing for that Sect.
To think otherwise is absolutely goddamned ludicrous. No. Of course you don't get to go desecrate the altar and then kill anybody in the sect who goes out hunting. You shouldn't even need to be told that. Otherwise, I can just go bashing, drop a few corpses on the shrine, and go nail everybody I see who's bashing. There's absolutely no way that "Your sect isn't allowed to hunt until we say so" is a valid reason to kill somebody.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Sect conflict should really just be phased out. It's never going to be interesting unless you offer up some cost that no one is going to want to pay. People pissed and moaned about their gods being whacked in an event that really played out like an administrative shift in policy/spring cleaning. Imagine what happens if you lose your entity because Garryn let's a classlead drop that makes Magick king for the next six months. Whelp, Hastati/Isra, vaya con dios.
Bad mechanic. There's too much time, roleplay, bashing, and emotions invested in the sects to have their fate controlled by...I'm not going to finish this sentence. You get the idea. Preach on.
That being said, faith bane is really the "go pee in the corner of a circular room" for the people who could complete the previous sentence.
Sect conflict should really just be phased out. It's never going to be interesting unless you offer up some cost that no one is going to want to pay.
Sure, why not? It's not like we don't have tons of things else to do that generate conflict spontaneously, fluidly, and in a prolonged manner, right? ... right?
Obelisks are boring camp-outs. Shardfalls are not the glorious strategic dance you guys seem to imply, nor should they be the sole source of 'constant' conflict.
That's all we've got. We can't wage wars for territory, we have no system to encourage ganking (besides champion, and champion isn't precisely that either), etc. There's nothing to actually encourage combat outside of something on a 2 to 3 hour timer heavily dependent on timezones. Shardfalls might work for you, but they aren't fun to me. Is desecrating an altar fun? No. The aftermath of it (including listening to the whining on the forums), however, is.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Not to mention the fact that portable altars and sewers essentially make this a laughing matter. Most players do not physically visit their altar, so it's not like I can attack them on their altar by 'catching them in the act'. As well, I use a great deal of moderation here, so I think well within my limits as a player to do what I did.
I am not really going to 'complain' about the system - is it defunct? Yeah. The whole system is, barring the 'creative' part. That doesn't give Ellen a free card to log on to the forums and complain that we are trying to make something out of nothing, when it comes to this system. Death is a laughable, streamlined process. What do you really lose for dying? I hate to say it, but encouraging them to think they are 'in the right' for issuing me or Azefel is only going to also teach them that they don't need thicker skin about something so inconsequential as dying in a fight or getting jumped - also that they don't need to solve their own problems, which makes the whole 'conflict between sects' issue even more of a pain in the ass.
No thanks. I think we'll be just fine.
I honestly thought it was the mature thing to do, to use the issue system for a circumstance that I desire administrative clarification about, and I apologize if that has offended you. The only reason that they were directed at you and Azefel at all is so that you and Azefel receive the administrative reply. As I said earlier, they were definitely not meant to try to get either of you in trouble. Whining on the forums is not necessarily the mature thing to do, I suppose.
I don't complain because I was killed, I complain because I was killed over terrible reason with no form of warning or attempted interaction beforehand. And because I have been given every reason to believe that it would happen again and again and again if I wanted to do so much as hunt.. and not just to me, but to others as well.
So once more, I apologize if you think I am trying to single you or Azefel out, because I'm not. I'm trying to get an official response over what seems (to me) to be an unacceptable action, so that it may be avoided in the future.
You generate conflict with people interested in conflict. PK in Imperian is fairly open-ended, but it is still mostly opt-in.
And that's a good thing.
Regretfully for Primal Spirit, I do have interest in conflict and I have a desecration button. I'm not going to stop pushing it just because people don't want to respond to it. I'm just going to keep pushing it and chipping away at the cult's essence (because the purpose of the entire 'war' is to do just that).
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
You generate conflict with people interested in conflict. PK in Imperian is fairly open-ended, but it is still mostly opt-in.
And that's a good thing.
Regretfully for Primal Spirit, I do have interest in conflict and I have a desecration button. I'm not going to stop pushing it just because people don't want to respond to it. I'm just going to keep pushing it and chipping away at the cult's essence (because the purpose of the entire 'war' is to do just that).
And that's your prerogative, but when people don't come out to fight you, you don't get to go kill them for not fighting you.
I get that one side being dominant sucks for everybody. The other two sides can do crap-all, and the dominant side gets to do crap-all because no one is going to engage them. That sucks. That's a problem with the underlying system, probably, but solving it is a difficult problem.
Openly and unapologetically doing things that a) Wheaton's law b) Are specifically designed to ruin other people's enjoyment and c) have no purpose other than to rile people up for your amusement is not the way to go about things.
But I mean, arguing with someone that openly admits he's just being a jerk to start forum arguments probably isn't going to go anywhere.
Enjoy I guess?
I am the righteous one... the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
-You're using this system to force people into pk.
-You're using this system to kill people who aren't pking for maybe helping.
When I did this shit, you and your bellatores friends lost your damned minds in rage, ire and emo. Christ, some of you female canines still whine about it.
You did touch on a valid point. Imperian's development hasn't really churned out any exciting pvp. Obelisks are about as interesting as story time on bellatores. Shard falls are awesome, but the population disparity makes it fun like public queue on sc2. Sects will never be a potent motivator because I can bash 2x faster than you can defile. Our bashers have a longer attention span than your defilers. Not to mention, the rules on on their side. To prove they're bashing, you'd have to metagame. Which, you guys are not above, but we'll just funnel corpses into Lionas, Ahkan, etc, people who you probably can't solo and who will ignore the paltry one death. Bad system.
Shard research has some glaring flaws that need to be addressed to make the system more interesting. Obelisks need to not take 60m+. There needs to be something outside of shards and obelisks that needs to spur conflict that doesn't use my roleplay/sect/entity as the buy in. Most of us aren't willing to part with our fat kids (Olanre, you're not fat, you're just a hungry hungry hippo...and all the entities are just white little marbles.)
You generate conflict with people interested in conflict. PK in Imperian is fairly open-ended, but it is still mostly opt-in.
And that's a good thing.
Regretfully for Primal Spirit, I do have interest in conflict and I have a desecration button. I'm not going to stop pushing it just because people don't want to respond to it. I'm just going to keep pushing it and chipping away at the cult's essence (because the purpose of the entire 'war' is to do just that).
This is probably the first post I've seen you make on this issue where you weren't pretending you were doing this for any other reason than because you can. Good for you!
Ellen - the best way to solve this problem is NOT to try to appeal to reason on these forums... because that never works. The best way to solve the problem? Find out what makes this so fun for the people attacking you... and take it away. I mean, Ahkan and Lionas will keep going probably because watching Sarrius try to justify himself is amusing to them, but no reason you need to get caught up in all this (unless you find it equally amusing... in which case fire away)
You generate conflict with people interested in conflict. PK in Imperian is fairly open-ended, but it is still mostly opt-in.
And that's a good thing.
Regretfully for Primal Spirit, I do have interest in conflict and I have a desecration button. I'm not going to stop pushing it just because people don't want to respond to it. I'm just going to keep pushing it and chipping away at the cult's essence (because the purpose of the entire 'war' is to do just that).
This is probably the first post I've seen you make on this issue where you weren't pretending you were doing this for any other reason than because you can. Good for you!
No, the post was more a 'I thankfully don't revolve my life on trying to make myself likable in an Internet game, so I am free to do what I please - which just happens to be continuing to pursue defiling a cult that is directly contrary to the beliefs of my sect'. I stated the reason I'm doing this - there's an RP basis. There is a mechanical basis. That you don't see it is not my problem, and it definitely won't be an issue I lose sleep over.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Just Gurn/Risca/Ziat tracking to Conquest's altar to attack (and Gurn's running around attacking other people bashing earlier) that made me do this.
Due to a bug, I wasn't actually able to really tell who was descrating and who wasn't. Everyone I went to kill was present at the Primal Altar during the desecration.
Also, this thread was not intended to talk about the rights and wrongs of the current conflict. There are several stupid parts to it, especially the bullying attitude that the "experienced" players to take(Seriously, has anyone considered maybe why we have the smallest population base is because the most "influential" players are also the biggest bullies?), but rather talking about cult/sect conflict as a whole.
We can see there are problems. 51 vs 11, especially when 4-5 of my 11 are actually alts of people in different cults/sects on their mains is obviously an issue. Killing just because someone's hunting is an issue. Griefing and claiming "just get over it because I'm having my fun" is an issue.
Most of this can be handled by the textbook let's not be dicks, but since the forums population seems to have trouble with this notion, I wanted this thread to discuss how we could address this problem in a civil, constructive manner, presenting a meaningful and thought out system.
Really. Let's act like adults. No, "it's the internet lol" is not a valid excuse. We have a small population. We all know each other. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean you have to be an asshole.
EDIT: TL;DR The entire reason for this thread was to talk about what we could to do fix these issues.
I thought about spending a decent stretch of time explaining why cult/sect desecrating should be no more difficult than it already is to counter, and using small words so none of the people arguing as proponents of the utter absurdity that is killing those bashers. Instead, I am doing this.
-Sarrius admits he is being a jerk.
-Sarrius compares Antioch to the Third Reich, in doing so alluding that the death of millions of people in the real world is anywhere approaching an appropriate analogue to AM deciding to press their numbers advantage to troll out some more unwanted pk advances.
-Other people have already explained that pk should be opt in for the integrity of the game and maintenance of ANY sort of desirable atmosphere.
-Other people have already made the points that support the conclusion that not wanting to engage your side in pk should not equate to a catch 22 pktrap of "I have to pk to be able to bash to prevent my cult/sect from dying OR I have to pk you so hard you decide to quit first." -PK options were mentioned. With the safeguards that have to be hardcoded into the game to prevent EXACTLY this sort of behavior for EVERY potential form of pk, is it any wonder? The utter inability of so many people to control themselves, and the utter inability of the playerbase to police itself because when these subjects are mentioned as undesirable by the overwhelming majority of the playerbase in an OOC medium the people responsible for the undesirable behavior say "No you're all wrong, we're right."
If you don't see exactly why from this thread and many others in the past that you are entirely wrong in your opinion of "I should be able to pk whoever I want because HOLYWAR", you are part of the problem. Something that probably doesn't bother anyone who willingly compares themselves to Hitler in order to justify killing people who want nothing more than to have a good time.
E: tl;dr - If you make it easier to desecrate, or harder to regain that lost belief, you are essentially inviting behavior that is going to turn off a large portion of players from participating in cults/sects at all, when any can be open PK for deciding not to PK and still not wanting their cult/sect to die.
I thought about spending a decent stretch of time explaining why cult/sect desecrating should be no more difficult than it already is to counter, and using small words so none of the people arguing as proponents of the utter absurdity that is killing those bashers. Instead, I am doing this.
-Sarrius admits he is being a jerk.
-Sarrius compares Antioch to the Third Reich, in doing so alluding that the death of millions of people in the real world is anywhere approaching an appropriate analogue to AM deciding to press their numbers advantage to troll out some more unwanted pk advances.
-Other people have already explained that pk should be opt in for the integrity of the game and maintenance of ANY sort of desirable atmosphere.
-Other people have already made the points that support the conclusion that not wanting to engage your side in pk should not equate to a catch 22 pktrap of "I have to pk to be able to bash to prevent my cult/sect from dying OR I have to pk you so hard you decide to quit first." -PK options were mentioned. With the safeguards that have to be hardcoded into the game to prevent EXACTLY this sort of behavior for EVERY potential form of pk, is it any wonder? The utter inability of so many people to control themselves, and the utter inability of the playerbase to police itself because when these subjects are mentioned as undesirable by the overwhelming majority of the playerbase in an OOC medium the people responsible for the undesirable behavior say "No you're all wrong, we're right."
If you don't see exactly why from this thread and many others in the past that you are entirely wrong in your opinion of "I should be able to pk whoever I want because HOLYWAR", you are part of the problem. Something that probably doesn't bother anyone who willingly compares themselves to Hitler in order to justify killing people who want nothing more than to have a good time.
E: tl;dr - If you make it easier to desecrate, or harder to regain that lost belief, you are essentially inviting behavior that is going to turn off a large portion of players from participating in cults/sects at all, when any can be open PK for deciding not to PK and still not wanting their cult/sect to die.
I'm so sorry that instead of taking the point of my post (which was: "rarely do those that are targeted by aggression get to say to their aggressor 'hey we don't want this' and have that succeed), you decided to post this.
As I said, I'm of the mind to continue because I can't really find it in myself to see the problem with the situation. The cult holds beliefs that directly run contrary to my sect. I see that they are gaining power. My natural line of play, the correct line of play, was to cut them off from that power. That means desecration, cutting some people off from restoring cult faith (in moderation and with care not to overdo it), and the whole gamut of 'unfun' things. The system is unfun, but the 'reward' at the end is their number being less than 100, when they explicitly need that number to be 100. That is about the most tangible 'winning' I've seen in Imperian in quite a long while - stopping somebody else from achieving the next stage of the entity-cult-sect system. I'm of the mind to continue because it's the only way to attack a cult whose RP clashes with mine.
Gurn was presented with options to stop the desecration. I'm not an unreasonable person. I offered to negotiate the terms even further, under the suggestion of a few people. I got silence, and then Gurn walking up to his altar packing heat in the form of a team. I think in the long run, I win no matter what happens because I am happy with a fight, I am happy with a surrender, and I am happy with a prolonged campaign where they have to eventually give in or overpower my desecration numbers (which may or may not taper off anyways, and it is about 1/3rd as hard to replace essence as it is to attack it).
@Gurn: Just because you demand that we act like adults doesn't really mean I'm going to look at the distinct advantage Anti-Magick's sects have over your cult and go 'hey, maybe we should stop'. To the contrary, I will press my advantage and continue to exercise moderation. The door must swing both ways - seeing that you are outnumbered and continuing not to speak to a person willing to end the conflict upon certain terms is just silly.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
No. You're a pretty unreasonable person, for points already stated. You're not roleplaying, as usual, but using "roleplay" as an excuse to cause grief. No, you can't really argue against this, it's something you're known to commonly do. Kinda like Juran.
Also, "Give us 2 million gold and enough belief to build four temple rooms" is not a reasonable request. 500k and enough belief for one temple room is also not a "reasonable request".
Constantly bringing twice our number is not indicative of the fact that you like the intricacies of combat and liking the skill behind it. Constantly bringing twice our number no matter what is saying all you care about is winning.
1v1s are cool. 2v2s are cool. 3v3s are cool. 3v4s are fine, too. 1v3(I went to fight one person, and I get hit by arrows from one and jousted from another? I'm not exactly an artifact tank), 3v6? No, not really.
I'm going to repeat myself.
It is the behaviour of people like you who keep players away from the game. This is why Imperian is ranked low on TopMudSites despite having an amazing admin team.
You are not causing meaningful conflict which is fun for everyone. You are not creating content. You are not finding a new, unexplored method of conflict which will create enjoyment for the game's population. You are doing the complete opposite by taking a new system and corrupting it into a griefing tool.
So, @Sarrius, here is why I marked your post off topic. I made factual statements to support my claim that desecrating should not be sped up or made easier, and in fact should probably be more difficult than it already is. You posted a bunch of verbose nonsense saying "I don't get the point, I won't stop until someone makes me." No one is surprised at this, we've seen your classleads and 1v1's, but you aren't contributing to any sort of point that supports the OP.
No. You're a pretty unreasonable person, for points already stated. You're not roleplaying, as usual, but using "roleplay" as an excuse to cause grief. No, you can't really argue against this, it's something you're known to commonly do. Kinda like Juran.
I offered to give you terms for us to stop. That in itself is reasonable. Regretfully, I am not a person that goes around displaying my masturbatory RP for all to see (I've generally stopped adding to the Wild Hunt RP post, because I added what I felt appropriate for forum goes), which is probably a good reason as to why you take a stab at my ability or inclination to 'roleplay'. I rarely use roleplay in itself as a vehicle for grief - your past experiences with that concept are isolated cases and you are merely playing the victim in an effort to make yourself look reasonable and in the 'right' in the presented cases. I don't think I've ever made a reputation for myself as using roleplay as a method to grief people.
Also, "Give us 2 million gold and enough belief to build four temple rooms" is not a reasonable request. 500k and enough belief for one temple room is also not a "reasonable request".
I stated quite clearly in my previous post and before this in tells that I am willing to negotiate these terms. Up to and inclusion of omitting most or all of this term. Frankly, I demanded it to demand something material - it was a suggestion of those that discussed the terms of war because we are, as I stated before, reasonable people and thus offered you an 'out'. If you want the truth, my sect has enough gold and commodities to pay for every temple room allowed to us, and then some. We don't need your gold, your bashing power, or your commodities.
Constantly bringing twice our number is not indicative of the fact that you like the intricacies of combat and liking the skill behind it. Constantly bringing twice our number no matter what is saying all you care about is winning.
I don't really know where I mentioned the intricacies of combat in my last post. To be quite honest, I have not brought 'twice your number' to any combat engagement regarding this sect war. Every fight has been close to if not entirely even, numerically. I shouldn't really even be humoring this point, but I felt it was necessary only to illustrate how exaggerated you are acting in an effort to look victimized.
1v1s are cool. 2v2s are cool. 3v3s are cool. 3v4s are fine, too. 1v3(I went to fight one person, and I get hit by arrows from one and jousted from another? I'm not exactly an artifact tank), 3v6? No, not really.
You brought Khizan, yourself, and Aulani. We had Victor, myself, Azefel, and Shou. Juran came to help us after it was irrelevant, and he brought two non-combatants to the scene - I mean, unless you count an expressly stated pacifist and a until-just-a-few-hours ago utterly inactive player as threats, your numbers are quite a bit off. Last night, you brought people to attack Azefel unprovoked. You got an even fight. I cannot possibly think of a time in this whole 'war' where you have stared down 2:1 odds in the form of a 6 AM vs. 3 Magick group. That is utterly off and you should stop spoutingthat because it evokes no sympathy from me.
I'm going to repeat myself.
It is the behaviour of people like you who keep players away from the game. This is why Imperian is ranked low on TopMudSites despite having an amazing admin team.
I am comfortable with this accusation, but only because I know it isn't true. You are, as usual of you, being incredibly dramatic about the fact that somebody decided to ''pick on'' you. You are being 'bullied', so your 'bullies' are the reason the game is dying or not fun or what have you. I try my hardest to cultivate an environment in my guild, my city, and my sect worth staying for, and I seem to do a pretty decent job of it on top of the rest of the people in all three of those listed organizations. That you do not understand thatis none of my concern.
You are not causing meaningful conflict which is fun for everyone. You are not creating content. You are not finding a new, unexplored method of conflict which will create enjoyment for the game's population. You are doing the complete opposite by taking a new system and corrupting it into a griefing tool.
I am not out to cause 'meaningful conflict which is fun for everyone', because that would be impossible - the conflict including you, you always tend to whine about. I am not trying to 'corrupt' the system, nor am I. Garryn put desecration in for a reason (perhaps a different one), and I am utilizing that tool to wage war on you. He would have restricted its usage to prevent this if it wasn't supposed to happen - you cannot possibly believe he did not think of it, especially when we did it to Demonology for a night or two also and he didn't fix it then.
Is what we are doing griefy? Probably slightly. I asked a few people if they thought we were going too far. The general answer was 'not really'.
But I offered you a negotiation. I offered to omit or change some terms. I gave you an out. Until I cease offering that out, I am not really out to cause you grief. Why would I seek to grief you (an activity that is often defined as causing needless suffering for my own amusement) when the terms met could end my fun?
Let me spell it out for you in some roleplay terms:
The Primal Spirit is a nature-centric magick cult. They approve of magick, and even likely endorse its usage to explore, channel, or join with the Wilds. For lack of better words, the Hunt sect hates this. Their expressly listed hatreds happen to include people that corrupt the land with magick, or summon demons, or craft the undead. That you are gaining strength (an attached entity) is a sign that the Wild Hunt needs to cut the Primal Spirit cult down to size to prevent them from growing out of control. The Conquest joined them as allies, and they also probably see Magick gaining another sect as a serious problem for their vision of conquering the world.
Moreover, it would do well for Anti-Magick's society to prevent Magick from gaining the service of another Morphae.
I guess I'm confused here - instead of taking the obvious out, you are sticking to misplaced (and untrue) prejudices. You are complaining about our methods, and the price requested, when I offered to lower or do away with it almost entirely. Instead of making an attempt to end things, you come here and accuse me of trying to 'corrupt the system' and call me a detriment to the game's society. It is not productive, and it gets you nowhere.
However, instead of basing my character's interactions with you on my opinion of you (which is to say, I think you are a person who plays the victim the moment the going gets tough - amongst other things), I will continue to offer you an out IC, and you can take it if you like.
EDIT: I won't continue to offer an out, actually, because Gurn decided it was in his best interest to snub me instead of pursuing an arrangement that ends the entire ordeal. How positively adult of him.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
The hilarious thing to me here is that this is the same Sarrius who goes into shardfrall threads and craps all over them with 1v1 superiority and how shardfalls are so uninteresting and lame and blah blah blah, but who's like "What, we've got 3 times their numbers online!? It's desecrating time!"
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
The hilarious thing to me here is that this is the same Sarrius who goes into shardfrall threads and craps all over them with 1v1 superiority and how shardfalls are so uninteresting and lame and blah blah blah, but who's like "What, we've got 3 times their numbers online!? It's desecrating time!"
I was actually under the impression I was going to be desecrating alone
tonight. Turns out everybody refilled their ammo while I was at work. I'm not going to say no to more people chipping in to the desecration chain, because when it inevitably comes down to only me being not bored of that process, I will be thankful they pitched in for that long. I would probably still be desecrating if I had the faith. I'm going to powerbash and go back to it soon.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
The exact same Sarrius that agreed with Juran in saying that demonic does poorly in shardfalls due to lacking coordination and not capitalizing on our endless synergy, because it was about strategy not numbers.
The exact same Sarrius that agreed with Juran in saying that demonic does poorly in shardfalls due to lacking coordination and not capitalizing on our endless synergy, because it was about strategy not numbers.
I feel like at least part of that is misquoting me.
When I read the news post about the war, I instantly logged into the forums to see everyone yell at each other. But, as much as I do like any excuse to go out and fight and have a good time, I'm more inclined to believe that this isn't the right way to go about doing such. Desecration is one thing. Murdering -all-(five, but still) members of the other sect is another. Especially while hunting.
I think the best part of this entire situation was accidentally forgetting that Miichelle and Song were following me after Sarrius died and tracking them both into combat.
Neither attacked or had any idea why they were there, though Song did bravely tank a few attacks without healing elixirs before dying. I'm sure her contribution is what gave us that fight.
Comments
To correlate: Bashing for faith/belief is not a valid reason, but desecrating is. There is no concept of area control or shrine dominance, so no equivalent to raising shrines.
The real problem is that the system doesn't provide you with a valid thing to target people for, other than desecration or attacking you. Complain about that, but don't attack randoms for bashing.
EDIT: Grammar
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
I feel it important to note that the issue that I sent Azefel (and the issue that Seraphyne sent you, which was indeed copy/pasted) are not seeking administrative penalties for anyone. They are inquiring about the rules regarding the situation. You know this full well, because the last sentence of the issue is: "This issue is merely a query, I do not wish Azefel to suffer any sort of penalty for it."
Not to mention the fact that portable altars and sewers essentially make this a laughing matter. Most players do not physically visit their altar, so it's not like I can attack them on their altar by 'catching them in the act'. As well, I use a great deal of moderation here, so I think well within my limits as a player to do what I did.
I am not really going to 'complain' about the system - is it defunct? Yeah. The whole system is, barring the 'creative' part. That doesn't give Ellen a free card to log on to the forums and complain that we are trying to make something out of nothing, when it comes to this system. Death is a laughable, streamlined process. What do you really lose for dying? I hate to say it, but encouraging them to think they are 'in the right' for issuing me or Azefel is only going to also teach them that they don't need thicker skin about something so inconsequential as dying in a fight or getting jumped - also that they don't need to solve their own problems, which makes the whole 'conflict between sects' issue even more of a pain in the ass.
No thanks. I think we'll be just fine.
Choosing to desecrate an altar doesn't give you the right to kill people who are bashing for that Sect.
To think otherwise is absolutely goddamned ludicrous. No. Of course you don't get to go desecrate the altar and then kill anybody in the sect who goes out hunting. You shouldn't even need to be told that. Otherwise, I can just go bashing, drop a few corpses on the shrine, and go nail everybody I see who's bashing. There's absolutely no way that "Your sect isn't allowed to hunt until we say so" is a valid reason to kill somebody.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Bad mechanic. There's too much time, roleplay, bashing, and emotions invested in the sects to have their fate controlled by...I'm not going to finish this sentence. You get the idea. Preach on.
That being said, faith bane is really the "go pee in the corner of a circular room" for the people who could complete the previous sentence.
Obelisks are boring camp-outs.
Shardfalls are not the glorious strategic dance you guys seem to imply, nor should they be the sole source of 'constant' conflict.
That's all we've got. We can't wage wars for territory, we have no system to encourage ganking (besides champion, and champion isn't precisely that either), etc. There's nothing to actually encourage combat outside of something on a 2 to 3 hour timer heavily dependent on timezones. Shardfalls might work for you, but they aren't fun to me. Is desecrating an altar fun? No. The aftermath of it (including listening to the whining on the forums), however, is.
And that's a good thing.
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
I don't complain because I was killed, I complain because I was killed over terrible reason with no form of warning or attempted interaction beforehand. And because I have been given every reason to believe that it would happen again and again and again if I wanted to do so much as hunt.. and not just to me, but to others as well.
So once more, I apologize if you think I am trying to single you or Azefel out, because I'm not. I'm trying to get an official response over what seems (to me) to be an unacceptable action, so that it may be avoided in the future.
Edit: I also apologize for derailing the thread.
And that's your prerogative, but when people don't come out to fight you, you don't get to go kill them for not fighting you.
I get that one side being dominant sucks for everybody. The other two sides can do crap-all, and the dominant side gets to do crap-all because no one is going to engage them. That sucks. That's a problem with the underlying system, probably, but solving it is a difficult problem.
Openly and unapologetically doing things that a) Wheaton's law b) Are specifically designed to ruin other people's enjoyment and c) have no purpose other than to rile people up for your amusement is not the way to go about things.
But I mean, arguing with someone that openly admits he's just being a jerk to start forum arguments probably isn't going to go anywhere.
Enjoy I guess?
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
Shard research has some glaring flaws that need to be addressed to make the system more interesting. Obelisks need to not take 60m+. There needs to be something outside of shards and obelisks that needs to spur conflict that doesn't use my roleplay/sect/entity as the buy in. Most of us aren't willing to part with our fat kids (Olanre, you're not fat, you're just a hungry hungry hippo...and all the entities are just white little marbles.)
This is probably the first post I've seen you make on this issue where you weren't pretending you were doing this for any other reason than because you can. Good for you!
Ellen - the best way to solve this problem is NOT to try to appeal to reason on these forums... because that never works. The best way to solve the problem? Find out what makes this so fun for the people attacking you... and take it away. I mean, Ahkan and Lionas will keep going probably because watching Sarrius try to justify himself is amusing to them, but no reason you need to get caught up in all this (unless you find it equally amusing... in which case fire away)
Due to a bug, I wasn't actually able to really tell who was descrating and who wasn't. Everyone I went to kill was present at the Primal Altar during the desecration.
-Sarrius admits he is being a jerk.
-PK options were mentioned. With the safeguards that have to be hardcoded into the game to prevent EXACTLY this sort of behavior for EVERY potential form of pk, is it any wonder? The utter inability of so many people to control themselves, and the utter inability of the playerbase to police itself because when these subjects are mentioned as undesirable by the overwhelming majority of the playerbase in an OOC medium the people responsible for the undesirable behavior say "No you're all wrong, we're right."
If you don't see exactly why from this thread and many others in the past that you are entirely wrong in your opinion of "I should be able to pk whoever I want because HOLYWAR", you are part of the problem. Something that probably doesn't bother anyone who willingly compares themselves to Hitler in order to justify killing people who want nothing more than to have a good time.
I'm so sorry that instead of taking the point of my post (which was: "rarely do those that are targeted by aggression get to say to their aggressor 'hey we don't want this' and have that succeed), you decided to post this.
As I said, I'm of the mind to continue because I can't really find it in myself to see the problem with the situation. The cult holds beliefs that directly run contrary to my sect. I see that they are gaining power. My natural line of play, the correct line of play, was to cut them off from that power. That means desecration, cutting some people off from restoring cult faith (in moderation and with care not to overdo it), and the whole gamut of 'unfun' things. The system is unfun, but the 'reward' at the end is their number being less than 100, when they explicitly need that number to be 100. That is about the most tangible 'winning' I've seen in Imperian in quite a long while - stopping somebody else from achieving the next stage of the entity-cult-sect system. I'm of the mind to continue because it's the only way to attack a cult whose RP clashes with mine.
Gurn was presented with options to stop the desecration. I'm not an unreasonable person. I offered to negotiate the terms even further, under the suggestion of a few people. I got silence, and then Gurn walking up to his altar packing heat in the form of a team. I think in the long run, I win no matter what happens because I am happy with a fight, I am happy with a surrender, and I am happy with a prolonged campaign where they have to eventually give in or overpower my desecration numbers (which may or may not taper off anyways, and it is about 1/3rd as hard to replace essence as it is to attack it).
@Gurn: Just because you demand that we act like adults doesn't really mean I'm going to look at the distinct advantage Anti-Magick's sects have over your cult and go 'hey, maybe we should stop'. To the contrary, I will press my advantage and continue to exercise moderation. The door must swing both ways - seeing that you are outnumbered and continuing not to speak to a person willing to end the conflict upon certain terms is just silly.
This is why we can't have nice things.
/derail
But I offered you a negotiation. I offered to omit or change some terms. I gave you an out. Until I cease offering that out, I am not really out to cause you grief. Why would I seek to grief you (an activity that is often defined as causing needless suffering for my own amusement) when the terms met could end my fun?
Let me spell it out for you in some roleplay terms:
The Primal Spirit is a nature-centric magick cult. They approve of magick, and even likely endorse its usage to explore, channel, or join with the Wilds. For lack of better words, the Hunt sect hates this. Their expressly listed hatreds happen to include people that corrupt the land with magick, or summon demons, or craft the undead. That you are gaining strength (an attached entity) is a sign that the Wild Hunt needs to cut the Primal Spirit cult down to size to prevent them from growing out of control. The Conquest joined them as allies, and they also probably see Magick gaining another sect as a serious problem for their vision of conquering the world.
Moreover, it would do well for Anti-Magick's society to prevent Magick from gaining the service of another Morphae.
I guess I'm confused here - instead of taking the obvious out, you are sticking to misplaced (and untrue) prejudices. You are complaining about our methods, and the price requested, when I offered to lower or do away with it almost entirely. Instead of making an attempt to end things, you come here and accuse me of trying to 'corrupt the system' and call me a detriment to the game's society. It is not productive, and it gets you nowhere.
However, instead of basing my character's interactions with you on my opinion of you (which is to say, I think you are a person who plays the victim the moment the going gets tough - amongst other things), I will continue to offer you an out IC, and you can take it if you like.
EDIT: I won't continue to offer an out, actually, because Gurn decided it was in his best interest to snub me instead of pursuing an arrangement that ends the entire ordeal. How positively adult of him.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I was actually under the impression I was going to be desecrating alone tonight. Turns out everybody refilled their ammo while I was at work. I'm not going to say no to more people chipping in to the desecration chain, because when it inevitably comes down to only me being not bored of that process, I will be thankful they pitched in for that long. I would probably still be desecrating if I had the faith. I'm going to powerbash and go back to it soon.