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The issue with the state of raids, and raid objectives

MedivhMedivh Member Posts: 3
As it stands right now, there is no negative reason when it comes to organization credits, to let all your raid objectives be captured. while there are negative effects of having them captured, they are all things that can be lived with, if you want to win the almighty credit more than you care about a little whining from NPCs.

As most of the negative effects are mitigated in other ways (see: tutor being in caanae for everyone to use), the biggest, and most recent raids were performed for the sake of getting points towards winning the orgcredit race. considering how big of a deal credits are in IRE games in general, this has lead to cities letting all their stuff go, so that they cannot be raided, and lets them raid on off hours to win orgcredits.

Part of this issue is that raids are worth way too many orgcredit points, but not having your own objectives also has no downside, effectively allowing a magick who refuses to fight and still win credits solely on being able to raid an easy objective over and over, while controlling caravan vision (which is another problem that really needs to be addressed soon).

To make matters worse, raiding an organization gives the defender points for failing, which really doesn't make sense, but could be mitigated. I propose that not having your own raiding objectives starts having a negative drain on orgcredit points, or if that is not feasible for some reason, it should give the city who has the objective captured enough orgcredit points that the city missing the objectives would have no way of winning orgcredits without getting their objectives back.

This is something that needs to be done soon, because it was very meta/gamey what has happened in the past couple of weeks. either way it should not be possible to sow up orgcredits this way, as the way it is going now completely takes the competition out of orgcredits, and makes it both unfun to look at and a sure way to make sure an organization gets plenty of power creep.

I would mention the RP issues with Celidon raiding Kinsarmar and viceversa as the same group but RP nowadays does not seem to be worth of any consideration when it comes to the implementation of changes/penalties/powers.




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Comments

  • LachlanLachlan Member Posts: 21
    While taking the objectives was questionable at best, the biggest issue from our point of view was that it essentially locked out everyone else from beating kinsarmar in that orgcredit time period, despite all the work we'd been doing to push for that. It also now essentially blocks us from beating kinsarmar for future orgcredit periods because of how easy it is to maintain a stranglehold on caravans and how much they are worth when there's nothing to be gained from raiding.

    Obviously, caravans are a substantial issue - and one that likely needs some looking at - but I agree that there should be orgcredit related negatives for not having control of your own objectives - regardless of which city/circle has them.
  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 154 ✭✭
    Easy fix would be to make the org points not be rewarded on a raid being declared, won or lost but simply assign points at the end of the in game month for every objective you own.
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 305 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2
    The idea of points for held objectives got shot down previously, when magick held most of the objectives - I believe the idea was rejected because it would just lead to whoever had the activity to off-hours raid winning org credits, rather than the organisation that participates actively in stuff like caravans, leylines, shardfalls and raiding being the one on top.

    As for cities just not reclaiming their objectives - That's fine. It's important in these things to give an org a way to opt out of a system for a while if being part of it is detrimental to the enjoyment of the players, and opting out of raiding, which is just one conflict system amongst many, shouldn't preclude an organisation competing and doing well on orgcredits.

    EDIT: Also a caravan fully plundered for an org is worth 5 orgcredit points. A successful raid is worth 250. There are maybe 15 caravans in a day and the total point value of those is not far different to collecting shards, holding multiple obelisks, etc. It does bug me a little that when magick dominated raiding, people wanted limits and rules to make sure that wouldn't lead to magick winning org credits by default - Yet now the table turned, and it seems many of the same people want raiding to be the main decider for orgcredits. Not cool.

    TL:DR - "Magick is winning at X system! Nerf the rewards!!!" "We're now winning at X system! Buff the rewards!!!" lol
  • HarnaHarna Member Posts: 1
    edited April 2
    "It's important in these things to give an org a way to opt out of a system for a while if being part of it is detrimental to the enjoyment of the players"

    "opting out of raiding, which is just one conflict system amongst many, shouldn't preclude an organisation competing and doing well on orgcredits."

    Only thing though, is that magick didn't opt out of raiding. They opted out of being raided, making sure that neither AM nor Demonic can. Magick is still raiding, sometimes off hours if not always, AM and Demonic alike.
  • JapaJapa Member Posts: 6
    This is from Asmund. He can't currently post on his own.

    (Ring): Asmund says, "So, being very generous with the numbers you provided, plus numbers I gathered
    from other people on shardfalls, caravans, are 5 points a piece and you claim there are 15 a day. 
    that gives 75 points if you get ALL THE CARAVANS. if you completely game shardfalls you can get 20 
    points for a whole shardfall, give the number that they are about 3 hours apart, that gives us 8 
    shardfalls a day which equals 160 points. add that together, you get 235, which is not even a 
    successful raid."

    (Ring): Asmund says, "Skipping all that, however, Galt makes a seriously sneaky statement that shows
    he's either oblivious, or trying to hide the truth like people can't see it, which is bad either 
    way. Magick has not opted out of raiding at all, whether its unfun for them or not. They have 
    attacked Ithaqua, Khandava, and Antioch with successful monument raids very recently, and have not 
    once attempted to get their own objectives back, effectively, giving themselves orgcredit winning 
    points without having to participate much in combat at all. What Magick HAS opted out of is 
    defending raids. Sure, its a valid tactic to stop alliances from beating up on you when you don't 
    want to. It however shouldn't allow you to continue doing easy raids on off hours while ignoring 
    everything else and still win the orgcredit competition, which lets be real, is a big factor for 
    driving participation in combat nowadays."

    (Ring): Asmund says, "Even getting more points on caravans, and adding in leyline flips, you aren't
    gonna get more than two raids worth of points. in a day, because its impossible to max out on 
    points."

    (Ring): Asmund says, "Lets be really real, magick is opting out of any combat they can't win off
    hours, so there's no way they should be winning orgcredits with the overwhelming losses, however, 
    its very clear that at this moment kinsarmar is winning with just raiding and opting out of being 
    raided."

                                      
    (Ring): Asmund says, "If the solution I provided via Medivh has really been shot down before that is
    fine, something does need to be done though. make it so that the defending org gets the same amount 
    of points for being raided if the raiders don't have any of their objectives/are missing one of 
    their objective, unless they take back one of their objectives from the city they are raiding. 
    Something along those lines. I'm sure there are many ideas, but something needs to be done. As a 
    temporary fix, turn off orgcredit points for raids in general until something more balanced can be 
    worked out, since raiding is just 'just one conflict system amongst many'"

    (Ring): Asmund says, "Yeye."
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2
    This conversation is also happening in the Discord.

    In a nutshell, Magick has no objectives, will not repair their monument, but is still raiding others.

    They are not opting out of raiding. They are gaming the system to stop being raided, while defacing others for easy orgcredits.

    This should be a valid tactic, I believe... but not to the extent that they can remain number one in orgcredits. A losing side should still having a fighting chance, to avoid power creep to the victors, and keep the game balanced. 

    Harna had a good idea. You cannot raid if you have a defaced monument. 

    There. If you want to opt out of raiding because of low pop or frustrations, then keep the monument defaced until you can muster the population to raid and defend raids. But now you are an open target for defacement.
  • GlijijeGlijije Member Posts: 39 ✭✭
    edited April 2
    The most recent raids were done solo at a time when at least four members of AM were alert in the realm. Two of those four were known defenders -- only one chose to do anything. 
  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 154 ✭✭
    For every objective you don't control at the end of the month you lose x squared points.


  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 305 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2
    How about:

     - You can only form a shard miasma if you're part of the circle doing the raiding.
     - During a raid, the leyline in the org being hit fluctuates wildly, and causes the 2-3 rooms immediately outside the city or council to randomly launch people in different directions, including into the city/council. This would be to stop people who couldn't miasma from just blockading anyway.
     - Monument defacement gives less points than capping an objective, either 1/4 or 1/5 what capping an objective gives because it's so much easier.
     - An org cannot be raided for an hour after it's been raided, to stop chained raids from multiple orgs.


    Alternately:
     
     - No shard walls during raids, as they make it too easy.
     - Buff siege, reverting some of the nerfs made to things like cannons during raids.

    Alternately alternately:

     - Accept that people can largely opt out of raiding, and that by not repairing your monuments you could deprive magick entirely of the ability to easily raid whilst having no objectives. This is the preferable solution, as it would mean magick would need to actually get objectives to get points, opening them up to raiding too.

    Larger scale meta point of view:

     - This is why we have a 3-circle conflict system, so that if one side becomes tired, has low population etc and refuses to engage in a given conflict, then the other two sides can still get their points, kills, etc by fighting each other. This fails when demonic and AM stay allied for such a long time.
     - The reason magick is winning orgcredits isn't any kind of abuse, or exploit - it's because magick still dominates other systems and puts effort in to keeping a steady flow of points from sources besides raiding.
     - Raiding is just one part of the orgcredits system, which is designed to reward overall combat activity and ability. On that front, it's still working just fine.


    The problem isn't what magick is doing. The problem is that two sides of the game that should be in conflict have decided to become nigh permanent allies, turning what was designed to be a three way conflict into a two sided one.
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 781 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't really have a horse in this race anymore, but this all seems very complicated to me. It sounds like the problem is being able to opt out of being raided (that seems fine) while still being able to raid (that's just dumb).

    - The monument gains an actual purpose: this objective must be repaired in order to sound the drums of war.

    Why not?

    JapaRyseMathiaus
  • JalarasJalaras Member Posts: 73
    After a year (or more for others) with concerns about such a conflict system. I can only imagine that this hasn't changed in one bit.
    Medivh
  • JapaJapa Member Posts: 6
    What Kinsarmar and Celidon have done is clever, however, most likely not mechanically intended. I think the raiding system is mostly fine as is but there should be some hotfixes to prevent gaming raids mechanically if it is indeed unintended.

    (I'm not opposed to other changes in raiding or other conflict systems but I believe it needs to be handled via the classlead system if so.)

    I think there are many possible ways to handle it. 

     - You could use points in one way or another to punish or reward holding or not holding objectives.
     - You could make the penalties for not holding objectives harsher. Maybe something like you lose your ability to capture monument if you don't have a certain objective.  
    - I'm sure there are other ways smarter people than me can think of

    @Galt I understand you are presenting changes for your frustrations but they largely have nothing to do with the mechanics being discussed here, which is orgs being able to not fix or recapture their objectives but still participate in offensive raids.
  • JapaJapa Member Posts: 6
    Septus said:
    I don't really have a horse in this race anymore, but this all seems very complicated to me. It sounds like the problem is being able to opt out of being raided (that seems fine) while still being able to raid (that's just dumb).

    - The monument gains an actual purpose: this objective must be repaired in order to sound the drums of war.

    Why not?

    I like that fix but there would probably also have to be something to prevent. "Repair monument > declare raid > have your ally recapture your monument > Repeat".

    I'm not exactly sure what that would look like yet but that's where I could see it going.
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 305 ✭✭✭
    Making clearing defacement necessary to raid would probably fix the perceived problem, whilst still allowing orgs to opt out of raiding if they wanted.
  • MedivhMedivh Member Posts: 3
    edited April 4
    I think small fixes like Galt's and Septus's suggestions would resolve things temporarily but it's like applying bandaids to a disemboweled corpse. But hey, that's just my opinion.
  • LachlanLachlan Member Posts: 21
    And... you know, fix guard scaling so they don't just ignore solo raiders for 90% of the time.
  • RokasRokas Member Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    Medivh said:
    This is something that needs to be done soon, because it was very meta/gamey what has happened in the past couple of weeks.
    This isn't new. Celidon started doing it months before I quit playing the game.

    Imperian mechanics reward people for gaming the system. See caravans, beacons, avalanche, etc.

    The only reason Galt wants mechanical enforcement of circle stuff is because magick can't game politics.
    Valence
  • MedivhMedivh Member Posts: 3
    Rokas said:
    Medivh said:
    This is something that needs to be done soon, because it was very meta/gamey what has happened in the past couple of weeks.
    This isn't new. Celidon started doing it months before I quit playing the game.

    Imperian mechanics reward people for gaming the system. See caravans, beacons, avalanche, etc.

    The only reason Galt wants mechanical enforcement of circle stuff is because magick can't game politics.
    I actually stopped playing (once again) after these issues came to light.


  • KatorinaKatorina Member Posts: 13
    At the risk of some thread necromancy, my two cents since I can't stop reading this thing and wanting to comment:

    The only raids I've ever seen Gli and co do, there were defenders awake and aware.  Several times they suddenly became much more numerous when the raid was sounded.  Not to take away or demean Gli and co, but many of the successful raids happened not because Gli and co are some super proficient raiders who were just that much better, but because the people who were able to defend made no attempt to do so.  There was one raid where I literally just followed Gli as she pushed the thing out of Khandava.  There were five potential defenders in the realms at the time, but no one did anything.

    There is no mechanical cure for lack of participation in the system, and something like obelisks and raid objectives both heavily favour people willing to invest heavily in the off-hour times, something that some people are simply unable to do.  You can try to entice people more, but I doubt that would be successful without offering such an enticement as it would become problematic to other elements of the game design, and that isn't going to change the fact that any smart strategican is going to wait until their enemy is unable to present a proper defense to strike.

    Personally, I no longer engage in the raid system because I didn't really feel there was any point sticking my neck out for a side that happily let me get jumped and die for some stretch after, and the orgcredits mostly all go to the same handful of people no matter what circle you're talking about.  Not being one of those people, I have no impetus nor desire to participate beyond mostly-non-existent peer pressures.

    While admitting I'm not the target audience for these systems, whereas I'm one of those weird strange people who prefers to just bash in peace, I find none of our mechanical systems beyond just duelling someone appealing as a means of PVP.

    The circles used to be the central locus of conflict in the game, and without it being a three-sided affair, both current sides are losing any interest in engaging in these conflict systems.  Magick would complain a lot about the serious amount of metagaming that goes on in the AM/Demonic circle, and to my knowledge and to be fair to the admin, at least some of that has been actioned.  Meanwhile AM/demonic seem to complain largely that they cannot seem to present a unified front to Magick that seems effective.  To the metagaming concerns, I leave that in the hands of the administration where appropriate.  To the concerns about not being overcome Magick ... you guys would be steamrolling magick if you put forth the effort into a concerted offense, but to be blunt and probably bring all manner of disagreement upon me ... it looks to me like you'd rather sit and complain about not having an easy method forward which doesn't require that coordination, than actually put the time and effort into doing it.
    Gjarrus
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    @Katorina That was well written and thoughtful.

    Raiding has essentially ceased in the game, as all sides sorta opted out of the system at this point. With the ailing population, I think this is fair and understandable. I know the city leaders have attempted a few things to motivate their population, and in some instances it worked! At one point I put a bounty on Magick heads, paying 5cr per legit limb turned in, and for a few weeks Demonic had a rather impressive turnout! 

    I will always remember @Mathiaus entering the council chambers and dropping dozens of body parts on me.

    I’m sure Alvetta, Infin, Rei, and Kamaylie do similar.

    Unfortunately, incentives for hunting, writing, designing, and non combat endeavors suffer from two very serious hindrances.

    1. Imperian is a self advertised PvP focused environment. People come here to fight.
    2. Non combat endeavors do not grant orgcredits, so we have to ration out rewards.


  • KatorinaKatorina Member Posts: 13
    Ryse said:
    @Katorina That was well written and thoughtful.

    Raiding has essentially ceased in the game, as all sides sorta opted out of the system at this point. With the ailing population, I think this is fair and understandable. I know the city leaders have attempted a few things to motivate their population, and in some instances it worked! At one point I put a bounty on Magick heads, paying 5cr per legit limb turned in, and for a few weeks Demonic had a rather impressive turnout! 

    I will always remember @Mathiaus entering the council chambers and dropping dozens of body parts on me.

    I’m sure Alvetta, Infin, Rei, and Kamaylie do similar.

    Unfortunately, incentives for hunting, writing, designing, and non combat endeavors suffer from two very serious hindrances.

    1. Imperian is a self advertised PvP focused environment. People come here to fight.
    2. Non combat endeavors do not grant orgcredits, so we have to ration out rewards.


    I don't have a problem in and of itself with participating in PVP.  There's still people out there who use my old TF thing for Aetolia.  What I do have a problem with is that it is a serious investment to put myself in a position where I can compete with PVP (skills, artifacts, doing all the stuff for my system I've been putting off dealing with in Mudlet) for next to no payout.  It's an investment with minimal returns, especially when the population is so low.  

    I would say that a lot of Imperian's problem here is a *lack* of focus.  We have several half-baked systems, none of which seem to fully attract people.  The last obelisk battle I participated in fizzled out when the power nodes didn't spawn properly.  The raid system is something people don't want to participate in for a variety of reasons.

    Speaking to orgcredits, of the 800 odd Celidon was getting, the lion's share went to a variety of council administration, some of which aren't even active in the game these days.  I don't think that's unique to Celidon, but it is what it is.

    At the end of the day, no one really has a given motivation or direction, because the game itself doesn't, and hasn't for a long time now.  You can forment "conflict", but at the end of the day, especially in such an ailing conflict system, that's only going to fill in the gap so long, and the vast majority of people who were combatants have lost interest and gone elsewhere.

    I miss Elokia :(
    Ryse
  • RokasRokas Member Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    Katorina said:

    Speaking to orgcredits, of the 800 odd Celidon was getting, the lion's share went to a variety of council administration, some of which aren't even active in the game these days.  I don't think that's unique to Celidon, but it is what it is.

    At the end of the day, no one really has a given motivation or direction, because the game itself doesn't, and hasn't for a long time now.  You can forment "conflict", but at the end of the day, especially in such an ailing conflict system, that's only going to fill in the gap so long, and the vast majority of people who were combatants have lost interest and gone elsewhere.

    I miss Elokia :(

    I don't know if Ithaqua is still doing it, but when I was Wildgraf, we revamped the merit system to reward points that could only be exchanged for favours unless CR6, in which case the points could only be used for credits. There were regular gifts of credits too based on total points earned regardless of council rank.

    The system's goal was to reward -anything- that was beneficial to the org. I regularly would change values or add new options for earning points, and there was still the ability to recognize people for things not listed.

    Credits weren't going to inactive people. People had to ask for an exchange, and administrative positions did generate merits, but it was worth like a single shardfall or caravan. Actually doing things for the org would generate more merits overall.

    > Not to take away or demean Gli and co, but many of the successful raids happened not because Gli and co are some super proficient raiders who were just that much better, but because the people who were able to defend made no attempt to do so.

    I gave up on the raiding system when avalanche started to be used. Single ability to stop a raid that we couldn't bypass, and then when I dropped it to stop a deface, it ejected me from the room but not the raiders, so that the defenders couldn't even get in.

    I know it's since been changed, but that was one of the final straws for me caring about pvp. It seemed like it was intentional bug abuse, but "apparently not" despite no one actually saying how it wasn't or how avalanche could be circumvented.

    Katorina
  • KatorinaKatorina Member Posts: 13
    Rokas said:

    I don't know if Ithaqua is still doing it, but when I was Wildgraf, we revamped the merit system to reward points that could only be exchanged for favours unless CR6, in which case the points could only be used for credits. There were regular gifts of credits too based on total points earned regardless of council rank.

    The system's goal was to reward -anything- that was beneficial to the org. I regularly would change values or add new options for earning points, and there was still the ability to recognize people for things not listed.

    Credits weren't going to inactive people. People had to ask for an exchange, and administrative positions did generate merits, but it was worth like a single shardfall or caravan. Actually doing things for the org would generate more merits overall.
    Celidon's system is similar, but the points were recently changed so as to make you have to do ridiculous amount of work to get any appreciable amount of points. Meanwhile people in administrative positions, some of whom just sit around idling (they know whom they are), get credits for basically existing. It doesn't really engender me (or anyone else) to want to participate who isn't already doing it for other reasons, I'd speculate. Well, I say speculate, I know that's the case on my part, but I can't comment for others. I suppose that's a Celidon-centric issue, though.
    Rokas said:

    I gave up on the raiding system when avalanche started to be used. Single ability to stop a raid that we couldn't bypass, and then when I dropped it to stop a deface, it ejected me from the room but not the raiders, so that the defenders couldn't even get in.

    I know it's since been changed, but that was one of the final straws for me caring about pvp. It seemed like it was intentional bug abuse, but "apparently not" despite no one actually saying how it wasn't or how avalanche could be circumvented.

    I certainly couldn't blame you for doing so; its around the time I did as well. I suspect the reason that one or the other side wasn't called out for exploitation is that ultimately both sides were doing it. I definitely caught a couple of them in the face raiding Ithaqua. It's kind of lame, but people are going to use any advantage they can get in a fight, and that's to be expected with the territory. Honour in PVP is the exception, not the rule, and I come to expect that much. All the same, between the fact that magick was pressing me to participate in combat I felt uncomfortable with and then leaving me high and dry when the consequences came around, and it being done when we were facing stuff like that, I have since mostly avoided it.
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    Make a Khandava alt. The leadership roles get 25 credits every two weeks, no overlap for multiple positions, myself included. I hand out credits like candy for everything. Write a guide? 50 credits! Write some lore? 50 credits! Design a room? 50 credits! 

    We have a whole marks system that redeems one for one, so doing group activities earns marks that are then turned in for credits. Turning lines, shardfalls, caravans, cleaning up monument goop, whatever. Do cool stuff and get credits.

    The one caveat is you gotta make sure we know who you are. I try to gather all the noobs and encourage activity, but it’s harder for me to recognize activities if you don’t advocate for it.

    We desperately need folks interested in design, lore, culture, and helping to define the theme and “look/feel” of Khandava. Come on over, the evil Cthulhu tree welcomes all!
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