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Berzerker Shatter Combo

MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
edited December 2019 in Fighting and Combat
Warchant release pierce/shatter combo is super strong, especially in group situations where reaching the threshold takes mere seconds. I recommend that we don't allow shatter to be combo'd with other high damaging abilities. One example that relates to this situation of choosing 'either or' is summoner when they made whispering madness no longer capable of being used as an instant invoke with enlightenment following right after.

What are your guys thoughts? Is it fine as is, or should the zerker be forced to choose between high damage or instant kill, or shall they be able to keep their super effective combo?
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Comments

  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    It needs adjustment, and I have berserker tritrans. I’d be fine with removing shatter altogether. Berserker has enough damage burst as is without an instant kill. 
  • NarujNaruj Member, Beta Testers Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    Release shatter needs to go, and there's a Classlead out for doing so already that I support. I would also make shatter unable to be repeated.

    I wouldn't go too far in that direction though, because Berserker relies on burst damage to kill. It's very easy to turn a class into Defiler and make it unable to perform its necessary function.
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
  • NarujNaruj Member, Beta Testers Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    Ryse said:
    I’d be fine with removing shatter altogether. Berserker has enough damage burst as is without an instant kill. 
    I disagree with this though, Berserker is 'fine' now because we added mana pressure via warchants. Up until that point, it was nearly impossible to push your burst to a critical level against anyone with even basic defensive artifacts.
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    Naruj said:
    Ryse said:
    I’d be fine with removing shatter altogether. Berserker has enough damage burst as is without an instant kill. 
    I disagree with this though, Berserker is 'fine' now because we added mana pressure via warchants. Up until that point, it was nearly impossible to push your burst to a critical level against anyone with even basic defensive artifacts.
    A fully loaded Pierce does several hundred psychic damage, weaken can be repeated to ensure maximum pierce damage, pierce can be both released and thundered for even more damage. Meanwhile, you’ve got three affs every 2.6 seconds that bypass rebounding (because everyone uses beguile).

    ...and you think Berserker won’t function without a low mana instakill?

    Thats ok, just hinder the Berserker! Oh wait, Berserker ignores prone, ignores block, ignores walls, and mostly ignores entangle. 

    The only valid tactic against Berserker is “leave the room” or “be a shaman”...and shaman can be countered by shielding after asthma, since Berserkers also have a non-tattoo shield ability.

    ...

    Look, we’ve all had our fun with Berserker silliness. Those of us with Berserkers all giggle and roll our eyes at the ridiculousness of it, then most of us move on because a stupidly overpowered class isn’t fun. Or shouldn’t be fun, for normal people. 
    Naruj
  • NarujNaruj Member, Beta Testers Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    I'm describing what actually happened after the Berserker roll-out, before the Combat Council added mana drain to warchants during a beta period.

    There are significant improvements that can be made to individual affliction priorities that negate the majority of pierce damage outside of team fights, so I'm extremely hesitant to make large sweeping changes without trying to fix the class with simple things first. It's a strong class, but in a way that feels very fragile.

    But I would get behind additional changes to Beguile, I think that point is well made. The class does not need to be immune to rebounding in any way whatsoever..
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    Berserker is silly. Check this out:

    https://pastebin.com/9KKWnGjC

    Not complaining about dying - was a valid mono ambush by Ruga, Drecas, and Glij. Well done, magickers. However, it does show how silly Berserker currently is. Each of them attacked me once, laying down six smart afflictions all contributing to Pierce while averaging 150ish raw damage and draining mana, allowing a double Pierce on the next lineup.

    No other class does that. Tons of damage, tons of afflictions, no aff tracking needed, and mana drain all building to a ludicrous burst damage and a mana instakill. 

    Note that this does not take any sort of skill or tracking or advanced coding setup - this is not a situation where Berserker players have hacked the matrix. It's literally mashing "Smash (bash)/Weaken/Pierce", maybe with a "Shatter" trigger.

    The final series of attacks had the following:
    Ruga - 366 raw damage
    Drecas - 395 raw damage
    Ruga - Shatter kill
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    Naruj said:
    It's a strong class, but in a way that feels very fragile
    @naruj I just noticed this comment, and need to respond. 

    How does Berserker feel fragile?

    i had more HP as zerker than Defiler due to paints. 

    The top tier weapon is also the top tier defensive item (shield). Other classes have to invest in both. 

    Zerker has backflip, kipup, and flexibility...so you aren’t worried about most hinders. 

    Zerker has spurn and warchant heal...so you can take a breather and shed some affs while still attacking.

    Zerker has a ton of defensive buffs, like barrier and ward and empower and toughness. Their resists are pretty amazing. 

    Zerker has Entrench and shield and mirage as panic buttons.

    All this, and burst damage, high affliction rate, mana pressure, and an instakill.

    So if the class feels fragile, I hate to imagine how an actually fragile class would feel to you. 
  • NarujNaruj Member, Beta Testers Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    Ryse said:
    Naruj said:
    It's a strong class, but in a way that feels very fragile
    @naruj I just noticed this comment, and need to respond. 

    How does Berserker feel fragile?
    Not what I meant, and I apologize for the confusion.

    The class is by far the best team oriented class in the game. It gets tanky very fast with minimal artifact investment, and has great group utility. However, it's entire offense is based on five afflictions, and this offense works because these afflictions are usually not highly prioritized in team fights.

    We can change things, and in some places definitely should, but if you mess with the closers or affliction rates too much, the class just.. stops working. This isn't a class that builds real momentum, it's a burst affliction offense that gets big for a few brief seconds and then stops.
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    @Naruj

    I disagree with your PR spin on the state of Berserkers paired with other Berserkers. They aren’t “great team players” nor do they provide “great support and utility”. Those are words you’re using to distract from the imbalanced manner in which they exploit the broken mechanics of the class to produce hugely inappropriate results.

    ”Support” abilities include pulls, pushes, terrain modifiers, buffs, heals, defenses, and other means that assist allies without directly contributing to your own kill succession. Don’t get me wrong, Berserker has those too...warchant haste, block, taunt, shield fling, sigil crush, Sentinel. Its almost like the creator of the class decided to empty the entirety of available strategies into Berserker (aside from limb damage).

    No. Let’s be clear. Berserker is not just a “super duper team player”. It’s a mishmash of broken mechanics that are currently exploited to create results detrimental to reasoned, tactical group combat. 
  • LartusLartus Member Posts: 470 ✭✭✭
    Trimming down berserker damage bursts is one of the steps I think will help make the class a little less crazy.
  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 149 ✭✭
    Sounds like everyones agreed that the double combo needs changed from the sounds of it. Narju makes a good arguement for removing it from relapsing too.


    As too the rest of it. It feels like peoples issue isn't so much what they can do directly more its the automatic nature of it.

    Remove the smart affliction part of a number of their abilities? Make them choose the affliction each ability gives instead of it being automatically picked for the best one. That's feels like part of the problem with zerks and group combat its a one button press for them to all align their kill route.

    Sure in theory four paladins could one button press(assuming the button was very complicated and good at tracking and following each other and cures) their instant kill too but thats not practically possible because that level of tracking is high near impossible across four peoples different ping etc.

    Just drop zerkers ability to smart afflict so well. Allow them to make errors and reafflict with the same affliction they have already given if they make a bad choice.



  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    I think that would certainly taper off some issues with zerker. However, I think there is value in having an easy class for beginners...it just shouldn’t be crazy powerful and a top tier duelist. 
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