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Defiler - But wait, there's more!

GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 268 ✭✭✭
edited September 30 in Fighting and Combat
So, everyone knows Defiler damage and burst is pretty OP. What risks being overlooked in this is other things about Defiler that stand out as likely overpowered, too.

Affliction tanking:

 - AB SHADOWBINDING ANTIBODIES, AB SHADOWBINDING TRANSMISSION. Passive aff healing/transfer to enemy
 - AB TORMENT BILESHROUD Passive % chance to ignore toxins
 - AB DESECRATION HEARTBLOOD Ability to have a high chance to shrug off a specified toxin for a full minute*
 - A def to greatly reduce limb damage taken

This is a problem for a variety of reasons - In isolation, all of the above are powerful, class-defining skills, like therapeutics is for Bard, yet Defiler has all of the above and they stack. %-shrugging of all toxins alone is incredible, even if it's only 10% or 15%, whilst being able to specify one toxin to have a high shrug for a full minute is incredible.

For comparison to bileshroud, we'll look at AB SHAPESHIFTING MOONAURA. Moonaura is a 20% chance to reflect a toxin back at an enemy, but the toxin still hits the hunter. As a comparison to shrugging in general, we'll look at AB SABOTAGE SHRUGGING, also found in predation. This allows the user to specify a single toxin to shrug and can be used again every 8 seconds.

The key thing here is that the above skills - Moonaura, shrugging - Are considered powerful individually, yet the Defiler has equivalents to both that are more powerful and also has passive aff healing/return.

Health:

 - AB DESECRATION SUSTAIN, active heal. Costs treant HP, but they can heal the treant each combo using nurture.
 - AB TORMENT BLOODDRINKER - Heals them passively based on any bleeding in room.
 - AB SHADOWBINDING REGROWTH - Passive heal. Consumes haze if you're not at max health.
 - AB SHADOWBINDING HEALTHDRAIN. Steal health. Scales up the lower the defiler is. Also has a mana version.
 - AB TORMENT TEARS. Allows the defiler to LICK TARGET to heal, periodically. Doesn't require balance, can be used off balance. 

Three passive/almost passive health restoring skills, none of which count to the regen cap, one of which scales up more in teamfights. Two active heals, because evidently one was insufficient.
 
Hinder:

 - AB DESECRATION ENTANGLE, AB DESECRATION RIGIDITY, AB DESECRATION TEMPEST, AB BLACKVINES
 - That's a spammable entangle, an aff that makes writhing take longer, a passive pet that hits with clumsiness.

Spammable entangle. Other examples of this were removed or gated - Hangedman now requires the target be prone, transfix requires blind stripped, druid entangle requires a two-step attack. Entangle, even in isolation, shouldn't work the way this currently does. Having a skill that makes writhing take even longer on a class that can passively entangle enemies on movement is a bit much, too.

Blackvines are... just awful. They entirely block flight, can be spammed in multiple rooms, always entangle enemies on movement. They shouldn't do all of that. 


Holding:
 - AB SHADOWBINDING MISTBIND. 33% chance to stop enemies leaving. 
 - AB DESECRATION BLACKVINES. Entangle on leaving a room. Completely blocks flight in the location. Can be spammed in multiple rooms. Impacts all enemies. (See also: Rigidity, entangle.)
 - AB DESECRATION WHIRLPOOL - Flood. Because I guess they needed that, too. And waterwalking, since they have flood.

Timebomb classes shouldn't have good holding. It needs to have holes in it, or the timebomb becomes ridiculous. Take Bard for example - Icewalls from sketches and engage from sketches, and that's it because they're a timebomb class. 

Damage: 
 
 - Relies on psychic damage, the hardest type to resist.
 - Has a skill to drastically lower psychic resist. Not curable. Seems to drop people from about 30% (max minis, psychic resist ring) to -1%. 
 - Entropy. Entropy only decays 60 seconds after they last hit the target with an entropy-inducing skill. Almost every attack they have counts. 

Each of the above categories Defiler is OP in - And there are other skills they have that seem unreasonable when looked at in a wider context. Often, their skills have multiple effects, such as rigidity and blackvines that both do multiple things which would be split into different skills on other classes. Simply put, Defiler was given far too many fun toys when it was being made, and to be made a timebomb class on top of that is frustrating as hell to fight. This is a class that can do 130-180 damage per combo, burst for 600+ using a resource that they can build up whilst still hindering a target enough to stop them having any chance of maintaining an offense, and it also happens to have random skills tacked - Flood, Waterwalking, Project, Apparition, resistance to limb damage, UnseenEye - It's like people kept asking if Defiler could have X, and just got it added without any sense for overall balance. 

Defiler has more tricks in each of the three skillsets than some classes have across their entire 3 and that's not ok.

EDIT: Oh, and they get the ability to block also, for... some reason. I'm surprised they don't also get phase.
GjarrusHavamal
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Comments

  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
    edited September 30
    Galt said:
    random skills tacked - Flood, Waterwalking, Project, Apparition, resistance to limb damage, UnseenEye

    Augurs and stealth, too. :)
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 268 ✭✭✭
    I called it project in the last bit.

    You could remove half of the above skills entirely from Defiler and it would still be a solid, strong class. That's a problem.
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
    edited September 30
    Yeah I'm blind. I shouldn't read these so soon after waking up.

    Don't forget they can break limbs for more hinder, too! Coupled with augurapply.
  • HyperionusHyperionus Member Posts: 31
    How hard is all this to utilise in combat?  If they are all extremely difficult to implement without being a scripting Wizard, or each have an incredibly long balance time, that could go quite a ways towards leveling the field, I would think.  (Of course, I'll believe whether you tell me, because I don't even have a grip on combat with my own class yet, let alone somebody else's)
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 268 ✭✭✭
    None of the abilities seem to have any notable prerequisites or difficulty in using them. The worst would be, possibly, tears - And that could just be handled with a trigger to LICK TEARS, or just stick that on every combo. Even the resource some of them use, the shadowbinding one, is so plentiful that it makes it meaningless as a resource.
    HyperionusHavamal
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 637 ✭✭✭✭
    Tears is pretty eh to use. Played around with the idea when going over Defiler with various people, and it's just not really worth it.

    Already agreed that entropy falloff and bellow need to be tweaked. Their passive aff shrugging can be a bit rough, especially on toxin classes. Blackvines shouldn't outright stop flying. A prone requirement on entangle wouldn't be terrible, considering team usage or that they can limb target without sacrificing too much. Could also translate it into one of the germinates that are not used ever (so 20% entropy cost or 10%+whirl balance).

    All that together would be a pretty significant alteration in one round.
  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 94 ✭✭
    Blackvines stopping flying may be a bug. It does not say anything in there about it in the ab file. Should just entangle on leaving.
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
    Eochaid said:
    Blackvines stopping flying may be a bug. It does not say anything in there about it in the ab file. Should just entangle on leaving.
    Flying counts as leaving, when it comes to game mechanics.
  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 94 ✭✭
    It doesn't seem to stop flying. I fly up get entangled and I'm still flying.
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 268 ✭✭✭
    It wholly blocks flying for everyone on your enemies list.
  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 94 ✭✭
    I would bug that then, I cant see anywhere that it should do that.
    Tyden
  • HyperionusHyperionus Member Posts: 31
    I think the difference is between blocking the act of flying (because you are so wrapped up you cannot take off) and the state of flying (in Eochaid's example he is already in the air, and thus not entangled by vines on the ground).
    Havamal
  • CiroCiro Member Posts: 7
    This makes me want to try Defiler. 
    HavamalGjarrusSwale
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    Something can be "OP" forever, and it doesn't matter until someone shows up and starts using it.  Even when no one was using vines (I don't know that I'd ever seen them pre-Eochaid), Defiler was a tanky tank buster that for some reason almost no one ever played.

    Demonic's professions have an incredible amount of team-fu.  So much of it is holding/escape/utility unique to demonic, on strong, tanky classes.  Part of it might even be a flip boot tax, heh (AM did have all the boots, for good long time).

    One standout in Galt's list for sure, though, is that it's pretty unbelievable to me that Defiler can block, too.  Let's give AM's Outrider block (a great, great class that got nerfs without being ruined, but certainly never had block), and then I will go be a blocking outrider.
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
    edited October 3
    There's been plenty of people who've used Defiler to good effect. Ahkan (love him or hate him), Lixan, Azefel. All of them have used vines and basically all of Defiler's kit. Regarding not playing it, Defiler is kinda linear and boring. You can be the most OP class in the game, and few are gonna play it if it's not actually interesting.
    Every circle has great synergy with one another, especially with Neutral classes mixed into it. People just gravitate towards loldamage because that's basically Imperian's meta right now.
    Regarding Galt's complaints... In my talks I had with him, and in the things he's posted, I haven't really outright disagreed with a lot of them. I just don't agree he's making them for the right reasons. A lot of people lose to something and attempt to discuss it immediately after, rather than waiting an hour or so to potentially calm down and discuss rationally. I don't think Defiler is 'fine' but I also don't think it's batshit op. It could use some tuning.
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    edited October 3
    tbh, I was probably still too green to even properly take that in when Ahkan was still around (especially within the context of all the other hold demonic was rolling then),  and the other two were before me.  I don't doubt he did... 

    And frankly, magick has very, very, very weak hold, and the disparity between demonic and magick there is particularly stark. We lack any sort of piety/gravehands effect.  We have rubble, rubble, and also, more rubble.  It took a bit for that to truly sink in when I went magick. AM can do some scary, terrible things now that Septus can stack ansuz + perma-prop with piety as a base (just add one outrider pet and things look pretty grim), but I'd really love to see someone like him leading demonic teams regularly, and using all of demonic's holds and hinders to their full capacity, all while annoying everyone greatly by also using the escape/other utility pieces and ensuring that everyone on his team also does so (I mean, I am pretty sure I wouldn't "love" it, but I bet an awful lot of cheese would shake out).    
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
    You can do that with runeguard + berserker sentinel dance, though. Totem only hits single people here, not everyone who's enemied like Achaea, every circle now can cheese with totem + piety-like effects. You could do it with traps + laguz , even, which is even worse than just a balance knock.
    You could even do that before with worm blizzard, it does the exact same as piety. Also we do use all of our holding abilities, when people are around. They don't stack chances with one another; if you escape one you escape all of them.
    Barring Blackvines no circle is any better than another now, when it comes to hold capability.
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    Laguz hits me and my entire team (much like rubble).  It's not something I can just put up and leave for enemies to deal with, knowing it will never negatively impact my team.  

    As for berserker, Owyn's actually done that... It's not a very impressive team comp mainly because berserker is surprisingly squishy and for the sentinel dance to really act as a piety, you have to dance it alone.  You're also probably never going to bring a team of berserkers, but you can sure bring a team of knights.  More knight more good.  I mean, anyone with better options isn't jumping to use that.  Runeguard totem is not perma-propped, either, and that's what makes that combination so deadly.  For now we use the incredibly annoying costume, of course.        
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
    edited October 3
    Zerker isn't squishy... You also don't need a second dance in groups. Beguile is nice for the zerker, sure, but it's not even remotely necessary. Eviscerate never really gets a chance to shine in groups. Bemuse is nice, but if you're dying to magick-sourced damage then you're still going to even with bemuse.
    Zerker is probably by far my most played profession next to Shaman, I didn't really have a tanking issue even with just a lv3 shield/athletic and tank doublechant. And using restore/heal instead of weaken when I needed to get more hp/get rid of affs.
    eta: Again, you don't need a "team of berserkers" because multiple people dancing Sentinel doesn't have any added effect over just 1 person doing it.
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    edited October 3
    I mean, Owyn is pretty artied, and can take pretty good care of himself, and I will just say he's pretty vulnerable in berserker.  Piety doesn't stack with itself either, but if you have a team with two or more knights (that have piety or gravehands), you're not going to lose your piety as soon as one dies.  Also, you have knights.  Also, how are you going to doubledance so you can tank better, and also have the full effect of the sentinel dance (it really did seem like dogshit if not danced alone, sure as hell no piety).   
  • MereisMereis Member Posts: 227 ✭✭✭
    The best statpacks of DK are clever or intelligent.
    currently tentatively active
    (may vanish for periods of time)
    Havamal
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    That's sort of the point.  If you HAD to rely on DK to get "strong holding", it might be pretty awful?  But I'd also feel like you'd probably be living through the worst of Templar (not that that's a place a profession should be, but it happens) .  Also, are they truly the "best" statpacks if you go "squish"?  But you don't have to rely on DK.  And again, I don't see that people are determined to hold DK under the water.  All of the people who have direct input into buffing a profession seem to be totally onboard with correcting the overnerfs, and have publicly stated that they feel DK was overnerfed.  That's fine.  DK should be a strong, fine knight class - while the overall circle team-kit is heavily scrutinized.
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
    edited October 3
    Swale said:
    I mean, Owyn is pretty artied, and can take pretty good care of himself, and I will just say he's pretty vulnerable in berserker.
    That's because he only cares about doing damage. I say that as someone who fought against him multiple times when he was in Zerker. He relies purely on tome and reflections to survive, rather than the plethora of tools a Zerker has. Also let's not forget on-demand transfix is leaps and bounds better than any sort of holding ability.
    Also I said doublechant to tank better. Not doubledance.
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    edited October 3
    Well, hey, if the transfix is even a bit OP, and people get upset about it, it will be an easy nerf sooner or later, because it's a neutral class... which means that anyone who wants to can use it, and everyone can be on the wrong end of it when they do.  

    It's harder when you get a synergy between something neutral and something proprietary, or when something is totally proprietary to a circle, but transfix is transfix.  No one really -likes- being handily transfixed (or entangled).  I know I don't enjoy it.  

    As for Owyn, you really shouldn't be passing any sort of judgment on his abilities.  At all.     
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
    edited October 3
    Swale said:
    Well, hey, if the transfix is even a bit OP, and people get upset about it, it will be an easy nerf sooner or later, because it's a neutral class... which means that anyone who wants to can use it, and everyone can be on the wrong end of it when they do.  

    It's harder when you get a synergy between something neutral and something proprietary, or when something is totally proprietary to a circle, but transfix is transfix.  No one really -likes- being handily transfixed (or entangled).  I know I don't enjoy it.  

    As for Owyn, you really shouldn't be passing any sort of judgment on his abilities.  At all.     
    I'm not passing judgement. I'm literally saying what he does, from my experience of fighting with him.
    I also never said on-demand transfix was op. I said it's better than any "holding" ability. That is a fact.
    Please stop trying to twist my words. And please stop changing your argument, when the previous one is ruined. It doesn't make for a very productive conversation.

  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    You said it was "leaps and bounds better than any sort of holding ability".  I do think we're done here for now, and should allow others to weigh in if they like.  
    Galt
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 240 ✭✭✭
    edited October 3
    Being better ~= being OP.
    Being better == making a comparison between things.
    Havamal
  • DeklanDeklan Member Posts: 77 ✭✭
    edited October 4
    This thread got me remembering this bit in just watching the back and forth on it.


    Jalaras
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭


    I'm stuck on a plane with awful wifi, so just to note some things:

    Defiler got block because demonic needed more professions with block. This is less relevant now because of the neutral classes, but previously they had either dk or assassin as blocking classes. Compared to the other circles, it was very subpar.

    With that in mind, pick your poison. You could give block to shaman (lol), summoner (what could go wrong), old diab (it'd probably work prone too #stillbitter), or defiler. For that era of imperian, it was absolutely the right choice.

    The reason noone really used to use defiler is more because of how dominant summoner damage was. If you wanted damage in demonic, you went summoner or pre nerfed shaman steal+belial.

    Blackvines in multiple rooms is fine. You could make an argument that it should get the traps/piety/ghands treatment and only fire in or adjacent to the defiler's rooms, if it doesn't currently (not actually sure).

    Blackvines blocking fly is an intended function, the defiler documentation is just not the best because of how many mini revamps its had.

    Clever is the best offensive statpack for dk, but I'd still play athletic because tank wins fights as knight: you're slow and steady into burst  if using longswords (which is where clever shines) so being able to soak some hits is vital. When clever works it really works, but athletic is much more consistent in most of the fights dk will have (vs am/magick). Basically back to the old stand by: dead people don't do any damage, and if you're rolling clever knight and someone notices you better bet you're going to get focussed hard and early.

    Sentinel isn't really a piety clone. Its more like soulchains, but sentinel stops things other piety style skills don't but doesn't stop some things those skills do. It shines when you overlap it with something because though they don't stack, you get better coverage of the list of escapes you will shut down.

    Most entangles are still instant functionally, just have a built in cd of some form (either on the entangle itself or the method of proning in combination with said entangle). Defiler might be the one hold out here, though I'm not including transfix in that because you can do some things to mitigate that.

    TydenJalaras
  • JalarasJalaras Member Posts: 12
    edited October 15
    That was pretty much my same thinking with the vines thing. Why not have a CD on the repeated entangle procs, like speed up the writhe timer for no less than .5s to writhe out. Like an example would be 4s you writhed out, but yet you hit another room or proc'd the entanglement in the same room within 1-2 seconds, your writhe time this time would be 3s, etc..etc.. just no lower than .5s regardless. Though, if not writhed again in 5s,  You start the writhe CD's all over again. Just purely an example is all.
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