To those who don't RP (but might)...

KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
edited August 9 in Role Playing and Events
After a conversation with a few people, I wonder what might help create a better RP encouraging environment in the game. To this end, I have some questions. 

  • How do you define RP? What does it look like to you?
  • Is there RP that makes you want to not dip your toes in (the stuff that doesn't happen behind closed doors)?
  • What kind of 'events' (these can be major or minor, admin-created or player-driven) or catalysts might encourage you to respond in character?
  • Is there anything the admin or other players can do to help you RP?
  • Anything else relevant to keeping you from participating in roleplay or developing your character's persona?
Druu
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Comments

  • SumieSumie Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    Honestly I was majorly disappointed at the lack of an RP event for the three neutral professions. Like how did Wytch become shaman? How did someone sneak away with Berserker's skills? Who got bit by a radioactive spider to make a demo-hunter?
    GjarrusKrysaliss
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭
    edited August 9
    Krysaliss said:
    Is there RP that makes you want to not dip your toes in (the stuff that doesn't happen behind closed doors)?
    When everything is a PK reason, I frankly don't care to extend my roleplay except to people that I trust not to be a douchecanoe about it because I have neither the time at present to work on my system further, or the well-being to, given my health has taken a turn for the worse. I am all for consequences to RP but frankly the reason I (and others I have spoken to) end up so indifferent and with such inertia against action, is it feels like any action you can take will result in people being awful to you for as long as they can get away with as a result. Logging in to see the news announce about city defenders just reinforces my point. I don't have the time or patience to deal with it. There's a balance to be struck there, but we don't have it.

    Roleplay is the driver of interpersonal conflict, be it combat, political, or otherwise.  When I have no desire to engage in that conflict because I perceive it as a time sink which offers me no reward as a result of engaging in it, then as a result of that I have little desire to engage in something that will lead to that occurring.

    I will probably get downvoted into oblivion for saying that much, but it's the frank truth of the matter when it comes to me.
    image
  • DimitriDimitri Somewhere coldMember Posts: 247 ✭✭✭
    'Downvoted to oblivion'? You hang out in imgur or something?


     Anyway. Frankly, RP for me is anything I can work on aspects of my character, I tend to make up my motivations on the go, with a general sense based on my own personal moral compass. So anything I can rail against, is great. Though i've got a hard time finding anything to rail against, partly cause there's alot of people who'd wilt under any direct opposition or as Anette stated, stop entirely because they're finding opposition (or just hit you till you die in a I'M STRONGER AND THEREFORE RIGHT mentality, in my experience this is known as 'flag up or shut up')

    Can the devs do something for it? Yeah, if it's beyond player power. But we do have a -lot- of options. Can do some seriously nifty things with emotes if you're clever enough, but that's just my opinion based with experience of devs either being too busy or too apathetic to exert any effort towards pushing roleplay.
    Most of my experience is in player started events/arcs/plots, but that usually results in a dwindling amount of people who can successfully suffer through building an exciting event and trying to curb the amount of people who try to take their plot/event and run away with it in a potentially dumb direction. eventually you wind up with one person everyone wants to run an event, and assume EVERY action of theirs is a event in the making when in reality they're just scratching their digital nose.
    (HE-SCRATCHED-HIS-NOSE-HES-GOT-A-SUPERVIRUS-THAT-WILL-KILL-US-ALL-UNLESS-I-SAVE-THE-DAY-CAUSE-I-SAW-THE-THING)

    I've contemplated bringing in one person i know who's pretty damn good at this sort of thing just to see if they can jumpstart the scene, that's all thats really needed really. an occasional jumpstart and everyone (rper and non-rper alike) just accepting not everyone is gonna do things their way and soldiering on with their direction. Even if it's dumb and wrong and all you find is opposition.


    KrysalissTheophilus
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    I am 100% always down for RP and I have enough alts that I exist everywhere. Just sayin' :P 

    But yea, the game has a serious issue with players not being able to take a graceful loss and build from it. PK and RP alike. 


  • AodanAodan Member Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    Anette said:
    Krysaliss said:
    Is there RP that makes you want to not dip your toes in (the stuff that doesn't happen behind closed doors)?
    When everything is a PK reason, I frankly don't care to extend my roleplay except to people that I trust not to be a douchecanoe about it because I have neither the time at present to work on my system further, or the well-being to, given my health has taken a turn for the worse. I am all for consequences to RP but frankly the reason I (and others I have spoken to) end up so indifferent and with such inertia against action, is it feels like any action you can take will result in people being awful to you for as long as they can get away with as a result. Logging in to see the news announce about city defenders just reinforces my point. I don't have the time or patience to deal with it. There's a balance to be struck there, but we don't have it.

    Roleplay is the driver of interpersonal conflict, be it combat, political, or otherwise.  When I have no desire to engage in that conflict because I perceive it as a time sink which offers me no reward as a result of engaging in it, then as a result of that I have little desire to engage in something that will lead to that occurring.

    I will probably get downvoted into oblivion for saying that much, but it's the frank truth of the matter when it comes to me.
    I don't speak for other pkers, and this may break immersion for whoever, but I personally, if you give me warning ahead of time(yes this may be metagamey), would rather RP instead of going facestompscrubcauseican. but if you come at me just straight insulting me, then yeah. I guess basically, I'm trying to say, don't be scared to try, or probe someone OOCly if you want to RP. you may be surprised what comes of it, instead of assuming someone's gonna ragestomp you for your RP.
    WyllTheophilus
  • WyllWyll Member Posts: 296 ✭✭✭
    Krysaliss said:

    • Is there anything the admin or other players can do to help you RP?
    Yeah, they can stay in character on public channels.
    You say, "Oh crap."
    You say, "My bottle is empty."
    Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
    Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
    GjarrusDruuTheophilusKrysaliss
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 104 ✭✭✭
    In a nutshell, we are legit having a discussion in Kinsarmar about how some poor guy's undead warbear was ruining our arpeeeees.  And I have had or seen versions of this conversation so, so many times over the years, in this game, and in others.  My problem with RP, as RP seems to exist in almost every IRE:

    some guy:  "I am going to get an undead warbear because I think it is awesome.  YEAH!"

    some other guy:  "It says here in section blah blah blah blah that you can't because that is our arpeeeee that you can't have undead things, even though they are mechanically absolutely meaningless.  I will have to shank your bear if you don't get rid of it.  You should ride the axolotl.  It's cute (it is though)".

    If you want to do the arpees, talk to Calais.  Calais does the arpees good and I don't have to break out my undead warbear (pretty sure I have at least one) even though I love Firebait the fat warhorse who brought all of the wolves to Calais' campground more.  
    Calais
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10
    I mean...hmm. 

    There are a few parts to your complaint, @Swale

    First, that people get upset when folks within a thematic organization do something that doesn't suit the theme of that organization. That's 100% legit. 

    Second, that someone's mechanical benefit should supersede the theme of an organization. I am super meh about this. Why? If you really, really want to break the theme of an org for a mechanical benefit, maybe you are in the wrong org?

    Finally, lording it over people. That happens. It's sucky. Sometimes it is for good reasons (thematic stuff is a good reason). Sometimes it is because people with titles are jerks who like to sit in positions of power so they can exert some small measure of control over others. That's frustrating. I've dealt with that many times. If it's over the top, my first response is to take them down. Usually, I can, if I can't, I typically go elsewhere. 

    As a player, it's important to remember that your character doesn't need to or get to win all the things. Sometimes you aren't gonna get what you want. Use that and develop your character with it. 


    ALL of that said, at this point, what theme is left in the cities and councils? Antioch and Kinsarmar teamed up for PK benefit. It's hard for me to care about undead bears. Maybe what we really need is less black and white in orgs so they can shift with the times (hey, @Jeremy Saunders, this is a thing I think would help a LOT with RP, but I know the folks in the Garden have concerns about pk balance here, so maybe you have thoughts). 


    @Aodan - One of my favorite bad guys was Dreguar, hands down. Part of the reason for this is that he seemed to take into consideration the relative PK adeptness of the person he was dealing with. He definitely RP'd with me when I was being a pest (also murdered me if I didn't run away fast enough). If someone is being a mouthy wretch that you could easily crush, feel free to RPgank. If they are being a pest that is clearly not RPing it (like just being obnoxious in tells), gank them. Non-PKers SHOULD be aware that people renown for murder are not people you wanna mouth off at. Baby Krys was just too sassy for her own good and took her deaths with grace cuz she knew dang well she earned them. 
    TheophilusAodan
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 104 ✭✭✭
    My thought about the whole thing (and all of the many similar things I've seen over the years) really is "damn, it's just a freaking bear".  

    You mentioned people lording stuff like that over people.  That always happens.  Once you have reams of rules like that, people are always, always, always going to use those them to ream other players.  It just is.  Because even if you did it with the best of intentions, you're giving those people a tool that allows them to exercise power over others in a petty, unfun way, in a game that people play for fun.  Sometimes those people even have good, or at the very least, sincere intentions.      

    I think our chars just shouldn't be afraid of an undead mount simply because it is "undead".  So "undead bears are bad" is just basically an example of a really, really stupid theme.  To put a finer point on it, it's the sort of thing an NPC would believe, but an Adventurer should always question.  I mean, maybe if the bear decided to take me back to his true master, Silantor, I'd think twice.  But I am also born and raised Antiochan, so I guess it would still just depend!  Antioch actually had a great theme, which was "conquer".  That is actually a very good theme.  It's both broad and grandiose, rather than small and constricting.  



  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10
    Being undead is associated with demonic arts. Kinsarmar used to allow demonic arts in the city. Then Trent happened and demons were literally overrunning the streets. More recently, demons overrunning streets literally destroyed Stavenn.  (E: <- There are other things between these two events to reinforce the idea that demonic arts and everything to do with them is Not Safe and thus Kinsarmar has a firm stance against it. This is a decade + of history. You don't erase that without real work and certainly not cuz one player feels entitled).

    There's pretty solid RP reason for Kinsarmarians to not be cozy with undead things roaming their streets. Extra so for anti-magick.

    Player convenience and desire/mechanics really do not trump a decade of established RP just because you want it to. I realize the RP in this game is dying but that's a hill I'm comfortable to die on. 

    THAT SAID, that's a perfect opportunity for RP. Character A discovered an undead bear they REALLY wanna have, decides to make a case to demonstrate undead bear is perfectly safe, pushes the city to change its stance, maybe wins, maybe doesn't. Either way, doesn't just expect that because they WANT something it is going to be immediately handed to them simply because. That isn't how any of this works. 
    Galt
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 104 ✭✭✭
    edited August 10
    I actually love reading history - but I definitely prefer reading it in a wiki type format.  Imperian's history is pretty scattered.  Still, a lot of us in Magick right now would basically read that history, and say "that's interesting.  Who's a GOOD WARBEAR?  That's right, you are".  I suppose you could say the "formal" RP is happening as we speak (it's in our news).


    EDIT:  the bit about "demons overrunning streets literally destroyed Stavenn".  From a certain RP perspective, shouldn't this have caused a near total crisis within demonic?
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    Yea, it should have. Kinda did. Not enough though. 

    And I -wish- we had a lore wiki. Our lore is all over the place and not well tracked. It makes me sad. 
  • DimitriDimitri Somewhere coldMember Posts: 247 ✭✭✭
    Wouldn't really cause a crisis of faith in my opinion, it'd be more of a cautionary tale over digging too deep into the powers in play for the demonic circle. Sure there'd probably be some people going 'OMG THIS STUFF IS ACTUALLY SUPER DANGEROUS YOU GUYS.' but its demonic magic/energy/forces. You don't tinker with that expecting things to be okay. You -think- you're summoning a succubus, but in reality you're summoning a ravenous malevolent horror that will drain you of--- wait that's the same thing. Are there -any- demons that don't want souls/blood/gold that can be mentioned?

    Antimagick bugs the hell out of me, and i know it's a dead horse that's been flogged into leather but with the announcement of Engineers in the work it's got me thinking: Could AM give up the last vestiges of their faith and embrace technology as the new antimagick? Either eschewing diachaim (making it a neutral force that anyone can use - which it already is) or harnessing it in a steampunkesque fashion. I want antimagick to mean literally antimagic, not just 'no no, we use PURE magick diachaim. The thing you know as magick is a perversion of the diachaim, and demonic energy even more so.'  And maybe not even antimagic as in 'BURN THE WITCH' but more 'Oh neat, you can throw fireballs. I have a flamethrower.'
    Theophilus
  • WyllWyll Member Posts: 296 ✭✭✭
    Kinsarmar should ban those zombie costumes too, because you make other zombies after you kill someone. If you can't ride something undead, you shouldn't be making them either.

    You say, "Oh crap."
    You say, "My bottle is empty."
    Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
    Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
    Aodan
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    I assume your average Kinsarmarian understands the difference between a costume and the real thing, but hey, maybe not. 

    I think the crisis should have been about what they've been doing wrong to allow things to go as far as they did. In previous major demonic incursions caused by Stavenn (they've done it a few times), there was always a major reaction to what went down. There was sort of...nothing.. in the wake of losing the second oldest city in the history of Aetherius. 

    Kinda...what?
  • WyllWyll Member Posts: 296 ✭✭✭
    Krysaliss said:
    I assume your average Kinsarmarian understands the difference between a costume and the real thing, but hey, maybe not. 

    I think the crisis should have been about what they've been doing wrong to allow things to go as far as they did. In previous major demonic incursions caused by Stavenn (they've done it a few times), there was always a major reaction to what went down. There was sort of...nothing.. in the wake of losing the second oldest city in the history of Aetherius. 

    Kinda...what?
    The zombie costume is a costume as indicated by the name, but the power of the costume is, it turns whoever you killed into a zombie corpse. So technically, they are willfully and knowingly raising undead by using the costume. If we're going on technicalities and disregarding that it is a game intended for fun, they very well should enforce this. Can't have one without the other.
    You say, "Oh crap."
    You say, "My bottle is empty."
    Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
    Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    Sigh. 

    I really wish the admin would consider this crap before they throw things in the game. 

    I didn't know that existed. I am now sad.
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 104 ✭✭✭
    edited August 10
    The question of this thread was basically "why do some of you guys shy away from RP"?  The unfun of having actual, serious arguments about something like a zombie costume (that does make actual zombies - which are completely powerless/harmless) and the potential of creating a system that actively encourages players be able to punish/sanction other players for something so trivial is exactly why, every so often, I get into full blown "RP can die in a fire" mode.  

    EDIT:  It's almost always disproportionately applied to newer/lower ranking players, too, which makes me even angrier.  And also just doesn't make orgs very newb friendly.
    SarriusAodan
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10
    That's a point to be made about how the admin is managing the game. THEY created the rules for the orgs. The orgs have tried to steer in new directions (Celidon once tried to make a pact with Stavenn back in the day and was told in no uncertain terms that was absolutely not okay). 

    If the admin wants to hardline stance the orgs, then they need to not put general items in the game that break the themes those orgs are supposed to care about. 

    That's a big issue. 

    Edit - It isn't really that trivial when you are talking about a core aspect of the game lore. There are three sides and they are all antagonistic to each other's ideals. Undead are decidedly demonic, per game lore. Either the admin needs to release stuff with flavor that matches each side of the conflict, or crap that's neutral to the conflict, or allow more shifting allegiances within the orgs (which I am personally in favor of, because that's more organic and enjoyable for players and opens up way  more RP potential. Shades of grey is where all the fun is. And the beef over the bear could be actually interesting if less peen waggling was involved)


    Swale
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 104 ✭✭✭
    If we're really, really not supposed to use something, I think it should bite us hard enough that we really would be silly to consider using it.  Or we just shouldn't be able to use it at all.  Because what self-respecting adventurer isn't going to use a useful tool, or want a cool mount, unless there is a REALLY good, tangible reason not to?
    Wyll
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 152 ✭✭✭
    edited August 10
    Like Krysaliss said, tossing out over a decade of precedent, of roleplay and of lore-building just because someone wants to have a specific pet or use a costume is bad.

    It's even worse to then respond to criticism with "It's an artifact shut up" and attempting to shut down discussion rather than allow people to actually, y'know, roleplay. That kind of behaviour really puts people off. Instead of anyone saying "Hey, let's see what the city thinks", or "Let's do some research", the response was to threaten IC harassment and even add new city laws to make people suffer for that disagreement.

    Is it any wonder people don't try to do anything meaningful when the response can be like that? 

    As for the undead items: Those artifacts should never have existed in such an unambiguously necromantic form in the first place, at least not available on the wheel or to all circles. Artifacts shouldn't be visibly anti-magick, magickal or demonic/undead in nature*. Almost anything else would have been fine, but undeath and zombies in particular are unambiguously bad for a wide number of IC lore reasons. I mean, IC we've had invasions of those kind of zombies and we've had undead invasions too - The zombies in particular spread virulently, and the costume is way too close to them. 

    *With the exception of class-specific artifacts like daeggers, of course.
    Krysaliss
  • WyllWyll Member Posts: 296 ✭✭✭
    Swale said:
    The question of this thread was basically "why do some of you guys shy away from RP"?  The unfun of having actual, serious arguments about something like a zombie costume (that does make actual zombies - which are completely powerless/harmless) and the potential of creating a system that actively encourages players be able to punish/sanction other players for something so trivial is exactly why, every so often, I get into full blown "RP can die in a fire" mode.  

    EDIT:  It's almost always disproportionately applied to newer/lower ranking players, too, which makes me even angrier.  And also just doesn't make orgs very newb friendly.

    Yeah, pretty much.

    I get the arguments from both sides, but this is why you don't really want to open this can of worms. First it is a undead bear and then it is every other promo out there that has a possible undead theme.
    You say, "Oh crap."
    You say, "My bottle is empty."
    Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
    Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
    Swale
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10
    TL;DR - The administration screwed up pretty hardcore on these items. The solution in game should be either A) poke the admin to correct it to an IC appropriate form for the org and/or B) try to justify it in IC via actual roleplayed effort (instead of just moaning about how unfair life is that you can't get your way) and/or C) don't use it because by the average Kinsarmarian that would be abhorrent to everything they stand for. 

    There are exceptions to that. My current Kinsarmarian was raised in Stavenn and has rather loose views on the subject, but she ought to be an exception to the rule. 

    Edit - It is INCREDIBLY lazy that the admin released items with a clearly divisive theme. I'm pretty peeved about this, especially given every move we've tried to make in the past to shift these themes has been met with a hardline stance from the admin. That's a pretty massive mixed message and in the name of a quick buck. Extra gross. 


  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 474 ✭✭✭✭
    I can't really get on board with finger-wagging the admin for releasing an undead promo item, and they basically had the right response in offering a reskin. As long as that's the policy going forward, I see no reason to say 'no undead artis'. The costume is a non-issue; what if a bard did a performance with zombies in it? #1A
    Aodan
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 340 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10
    The costume issue isn't that it's a costume, it's that it makes zombies?  (E: Question because ef if I know what it actually does, I pay zero attention to the promo junk most of the time)

    I have no issue with thematic stuff, as long players can choose one suitable to their org (if you get that through a chest, for example, it should either automatically be the appropriate circle theme or swappable for one)
    Gjarrus
  • TheophilusTheophilus Member Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭
    Being upset about the zombie costume is like Antioch being mad if the admin creates a hunting area full of clerics or something.
    (Ring): Lartus says, "I heard Theophilus once threw a grenade and killed ten people."
    (Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."
    Zerin
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 474 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10
    Oh, I thought that was the staff you have to charge or whatever. Um. Make it a ghost costume? Every side believes in spirits, or there wouldn't be so many Shapeople.
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 152 ✭✭✭

    An item that lets a character raise zombies is a little different to a bashing area though. One is characters using necromancy in orgs that have really good reasons to oppose that, the other is unaffiliated NPCs to hunt.

    But yeah, reskins are probably the answer. Make the costume raise clay golems instead, or something. Not sure how to explain the need to feed corpses to it then, though.
    TheophilusKrysaliss
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 104 ✭✭✭
    Galt said:

    But yeah, reskins are probably the answer. Make the costume raise clay golems instead, or something. Not sure how to explain the need to feed corpses to it then, though.
    I mean, corpses are the natural gas of Imperian :P
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 152 ✭✭✭
    True, they're used to fuel shrines and things too. And compost heaps. So I guess that would work!
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