Shiny new knights

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Comments

  • SvoraiSvorai Member, Moderator, Immortal Posts: 293 mod
    Listen, @Iniar, we don't need mechanics for you to have glowing boobies. If you want them, then you go ahead and use that lovely feature of DESCRIBE SELF and add in those bad boys. I won't judge you for your life choices.
    CassiusSeptusVerexaIniar
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    I think he also wants them to be combat relative though....sort of like warhammers.
  • LuthyrLuthyr Member Posts: 123 ✭✭
    I still want artifact halberds and enhancements for two handers.  Also, warhammers for Iniar.
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Two handed enhancements were removed for a reason.
  • LuthyrLuthyr Member Posts: 123 ✭✭
    They don't have to be retarded.  Just something to make them combat viable.
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Luthyr said:

    They don't have to be retarded.  Just something to make them combat viable.

    Damage is combat viable.
  • LuthyrLuthyr Member Posts: 123 ✭✭
    The same could be said of battleaxe right now without enhancements, @Cassius.
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Luthyr said:

    The same could be said of battleaxe right now without enhancements, @Cassius.

    And two-handed weapons would be over and above the current battleaxe damage, so you can see where that could be a problem.  We went into the beta with enhancements on all weapons.  After must testing and even more conversation, it was decided that they should be removed from both the fasted weapons (sabres) and highest damage weapons (claymores, etc.). People already don't like battleaxe damage, why would you think supersized claymores would be the answer to that?
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    It seems like a wasted opportunity to have not included a way to incorporate two-handed weapons. Weaponmastery could have gone with a slightly faster, single slash to be used with claymore/halberd/bardiche and still allow for enhancements - removing the ability to combo with two-handed weapons would obviously be a part of this. The math would be pretty easy to figure out, too, by having the speed bonus from this weaponmastery single slash be comparable with the DPS rate of reave (sans lionstance). From there, I'm sure some unique benefits to the route could have been explored.

    Something to keep in mind for the next round of classleads, at any rate.


  • LuthyrLuthyr Member Posts: 123 ✭✭
    edited April 2015
    I think you are missing my point, @Cassius.  I'm not saying stupid powerful enhancements.  I'm saying something just to make it tempting for people to use for RP and not something OMG BROKEN. Some people like using two handed weapons for various reasons.  Leaving them out againis just blah.  Like @Wysrias is saying, there are multiple avenues this could have been taken instead of the general DSL mechanic.
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2015
    I wouldn't say that claymore is exactly underwhelming with its damage as-is.  You wouldn't really suffer too much by using one if that's what you want.  It's generally as powerful as it was pre-classlead.  Now you just have other contenders instead of it being the only go-to for team damage.  

    @Wysrias could have pushed for non-DSL claymore in beta but I don't believe anyone really asked to explore that idea to my recollection.

    tldr: Claymore dsl is still claymore dsl and not a broken or unusable mechanic.
  • LuthyrLuthyr Member Posts: 123 ✭✭
    From a new player perspective, why would I use anything other than longsword, scimitar, broadsword, or battleaxe when those are what are focused on in weapon mastery?
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So was the decision ever made to dial Knight damage back a bit?
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
    Iniar
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Luthyr said:

    From a new player perspective, why would I use anything other than longsword, scimitar, broadsword, or battleaxe when those are what are focused on in weapon mastery?

    Halberds, because they are extremely cool. And warhammers. Because Warhammers are also extremely cool. In fact, there're a whole series of role-playing games based around the word Warhammer. You may have heard of them.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    Bathan said:

    So was the decision ever made to dial Knight damage back a bit?

    We did a 15% reduction a while back, yes.
    IniarBathan
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Claymores are awesome, both in imperian and otherwise.

    Everyone should own a claymore because it raises your cool points by a factor of 10.

    Buy a claymore today.

    CassiusMenoch
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There's been a fair bit of discussion on bellatores the last couple of days concerning knight, so I'm going to throw up a few things here for the sake of documenting them.

    Scimitars:

    Pros:

    - It is the fastest afflicting weapon that let's you have enhancements.

    - Opens up tendoncut (not really relevant, as you can switch to the scimitar just to tendoncut then back).

    - Does damage through parry (but not afflictions or limb damage).

    Cons:

    - Low damage.

    - Hack has no real use, as you're better off prepping with toxins.

    - Doesn't really have an endgame; tendoncut doesn't really flow into anything at present, as at the points you'd want it (mid affliction/damage chain), you're often better off just sticking to the sabre or axe. Tendoncut torso is the possible exception.

    Summary: these are a pretty suboptimal weapon for the three knights. Their one major use for rg and templar is just switching them in to proc an affliction enhancement before returning to the sabre. They're too slow to maintain affliction pressure themselves (might be able to use them at a stretch in fast).

    Potential fixes: I've not got much here.

    Battleaxe:

    Pros:

    - Good frontloaded burst.

    - Stances are solid.

    - Straight forward.

    Cons:

    - Too much variation across knights in terms of enhancement damage potential/damage support.

    - Hits a tanking threshold above which its inaffective.

    Summary: battleaxes are really strong, but there is too much variation between the three knights in terms of comboable/passive damage potential. This is one area where standardisation as much as possible is probably the only recourse.

    Possible fixes:

    - Standardise flare/sowulu/soulstorms damage potential. I'd say  make them not affected by sensitivity. This would absolutely require sowulu to go down; its higher damage could be justified when everyone except rg got to use a claymore to be optimal. This is no longer the case and having a ~10% unblockable on top of reave+enhancements is just a bit much.

    - To add to the above, faithroot probably needs to go, or be changed. The problem being I am perfectly happy reaving with 35 damage flares or whatever until I see the person hit 40% health, then I just whip out the claymore and get a free massive damage boost from faithroot no longer being in play. The rite goes, but the person dies; the disparity is just too high.

    - Change unblockable damage sources from knight abilities to fire/cold. Condemnation, sowulu, soulquench are all unmitigatable damage sources on top of an already really solid damage playstyle and have the potential to do way too much damage, particularly with the ease of sensitivity access. They're also basically things you get for free.

    - Limit enhancements so it is one per combo. Seeing lightning/snowflake/burning all fire on a double reave combo, or burning/emblazing, fleshburn/soulquench is just too much in a team setting.

    Longswords:

    Pros:

    - If this works, it is a brutal offense.

    - Plays into all the enhancements very nicely.

    - Multiple attack choices (slash, shred, lacerate) compared to other weapons which generally use one.

    Cons:

    - Shred is only achieveable for deathknights using teeth. Against anyone who has under 700 health and who clots to 0 on shred combos, it is entirely undoable (100%, not reallistically impossible). That 700 health value might drop slightly if you go from a level 2 to a level 3 longsword, but is also factoring heavy (completely impractical for an afflicting weapon in real conditions) and includes the bonus from a crystehl whetstone (we were unable to verify if this actually changes much/anything, but noting it for completeness).

    - The bleeding opens up a lot of concerns in team cenarios alongside bleed capitalisers or mana kill classes.

    Summary: longsword seems like the weapon that most of the enhancements are there to support. Its the only reallistic way to achieve templar emblazing (if you could make it to haemo), and obviously has massive utility alongside deathknight given their enhancements. Rg might be not so invested here, but they have a pretty amazing battleaxe support kit, so that might be the intention there, not sure.

    Potential fixes:

    - The issue for shred is an inability to achieve haemophilia. Not sure what other people's thoughts are here, but my random selection of potential solutions:
    * Lower the bleed threshold and scale it to maximum health of the target.
    * Remove shreds ability to deliver a toxin and make it simply always give haemophilia.
    * If the target has insufficient bleed for shred to deliver haemophilia, give haemophilia but do not deliver the toxin. This is probably the fairest to dk (who I think are actually in the best spot offense wise outside of negate).
    * A generic knight haemophilia enhancement. Not super keen on this, but putting it out there.

    - I have no solutions for the terror that is bleed scaling in teams. Maybe someone else does.

    There is probably stuff to be said about certain enhancements as well, but will leave this here for now and see what other people's thoughts are.

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The best idea would involve shred not dealing both a toxin and haemophila; it does not need to be a three-affliction DSL.

    Also, I think we should seriously consider removing bleed from generic cutting/blunt attacks and only apply it to specific attacks, like blackened tridents, longswords, and longslash. Losing the minimal bleeding on my Wardancer combos would not significantly impact my fights as a Wardancer and it would prevent them from stacking up the bleed dot passively.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What if the other two circles swapped out an enhancement for teeth enhancement?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    Septus just answered Luthyr's question from April (and I will be honest, I was wondering too).  :D  TAKE YOUR TIME SEPTUS.  
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Runeguard gets even more powerful, which it doesn't really need but I don't think it would be TOO bad.

    Templar finally gets a viable kill method, but then everybody cries(deservedly) about the synergy with Outrider.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 717 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Templar and rg don't need teeth. Its perfectly fine dk being the best bleed knight; they just need to be able to hit the shred threshold. Longsword bleed is more than respectable enough providing you can achieve haemophilia in some form.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2015
    I feel like we missed a great opportunity here:



    I tried to make it start at 37s :(
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
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