Shiny new knights

ClaudiusClaudius Member Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
A new thread for discussing the new incarnation of knight classes.

As its newly live, any beta Heros want to discuss their thoughts?
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Comments

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    I spoke with people in my circle (AM like you, so Templar) and got an axe.  On this axe, I have the emblazing (fire) and faithroot (cleansing doesn't get consumed, but does less damage) enhancements.  I have also been advised to get the "heavy" and "sharp" (smithing) buffs.  I got a level 1 artifact battleaxe and I like it.  Level 1 is great bang for buck (just as I was advised) under the new system.  

    Because I'm using a battleaxe, I use "reave" in weaponmastery instead of DSL now, and it builds momentum pretty quickly, allowing me to assume the "lionstance" that does more damage.  Once you're in the stance, it stays in your defs until you lose momentum.  As a templar, it feels like a weird fit with my big devotion damage attack (flare).  I tried it out for the first time in big skirmishes last night and despite the awkwardness, it really just might be too much.  I also felt weird being able to flare fairly often (and it still freaking hurts I think), and the reave attacks are pretty powerful and not terribly slow.  Hopefully people who can really quantify things and compare them with other classes will weigh in honestly once this has been live for a bit... I certainly don't want my class to end up "in the toilet", but if it's really a bit much (especially in group situations) of course it deserves a look.  

    I will say that one thing I don't see AM having, that's come up lately for me, is a near instant impale that has a long writhe (that also does damage).  The longest writhe from a near instant impale I've experienced is from runeguard, but demonic's is also near instant and kept me out of commission for a good bit too.  I mean, I have joust, which doesn't do damage and is good for trying to stop someone with a raksha band, but that's all I can do (which is fine).  And maybe we don't need one (a no or low prep skill that requires a long writhe), but it's a pretty powerful thing that certainly takes the target out for a good bit (and can make escape quite difficult, even with the hated flipboots) - and these fights all seem to be decided fairly quickly, so that seems meaningful.  
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Na, we have one, its on wardancer. What you're thinking of for demonic is probably shadowstrike, which isn't really the same as rg/wd's version.

    You want burning not emblazing, might have got confused a bit there. They sound similar but are very different, emblazing will be mostly useless for you on the axe.

    Jules
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    Thanks, I did.  I'll have to look for the burning one (which I thought was emblazing).  I sort of thought we didn't have a strong "insta-impale" because I'd frequently get asked to joust people (but that's probably because we had so few people in WD).  
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 581 ✭✭✭
    What instant/no setup impale does RG or WD have?
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    The RG one was the nairat.  Technically, I can imbibe the rune, but since it's much faster for him to resketch than for me to imbibe, I was advised to not bother imbibing (imbibing seems to be more for general cleanup of an area than for use in an already active fight).  So then, in a group fight (or I guess any fight), I remember the RG just stripped blindness/hearing/wunjo combo and then you see the rune and you're transfixed for quite a good bit, and they'd rinse repeat that a fair bit (if there's any cooldown, it's pretty quick).  
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rg/wd have the transfix/impale loop of doom.
    JulesAhkanMenoch
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 581 ✭✭✭
    While true. It's not instant/no setup which is I guess what I was asking.
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    I couldn't think of a better word choice, honestly... I mean, I don't think the "setup" is something I'd normally be able to stop, it's pretty minimal, and once it's up and running, it's just rinse repeat.  When I think of "setup" I think of cool affliction stacks, the more complex limb prepping stuff - or even the more "traditional" setups for knight impale/DSB.      
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Transfix could stand to be shortened.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 581 ✭✭✭
    Jules said:

    I couldn't think of a better word choice, honestly... I mean, I don't think the "setup" is something I'd normally be able to stop, it's pretty minimal, and once it's up and running, it's just rinse repeat.  When I think of "setup" I think of cool affliction stacks, the more complex limb prepping stuff - or even the more "traditional" setups for knight impale/DSB.      

    It requires you to be unblind and has a 2 second delay between the flare and the transfix hitting. Essentially, the setup is that you need to be afflicted enough and not prioritizing blind so that you aren't healing it in that 2s window.
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 581 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    Double post but I just noticed that you called limb setups 'more complex' than aff/dsb setups. I think most would disagree with you there.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    I wouldn't.

    Aff setups are pretty much mindlessly hitting an alias that tracks a toxin queue. All the work is in coding. Setting up a vivisect is actually subject to a lot more counter play options, not to mention it's like

    14 hits right arm
    12 hits left arm
    4 hits leg.

    How do I get all of these to hit 17 within 2 seconds of each other, when I hit 2 at a time, but once every 3rd dsl.

    Once you have an aff offense coded, 98% of them are mindless button mashing.

    **None of this really applies to monks. Monks are pretty silly.
    image
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    I think we should've trained people to prep with broadswords/axes pre-sabre break, shortening prep time. It's also why we have displacement, to balance out those weird hits. If you're brave and want to stack asthma while prepping three limbs (which can be done), then you can ignore rebounding making dsl less reliable. Except for fitness users. Oh wait.

    Bye bye vivisect.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, afflicting really isn't hard after an initial time investment. I coded something like 4 years ago (its horrible and would make the eyes bleed) and haven't touched it since and just change the command it passes the affs to. Has worked for like 70% of the profs in the game. I'm pretty sure Azefel's system (which I think a lot of people still use) does exactly the same thing.

    Automated limb offenses are actually typically subpar, because very few of them account for someone figuring out your sequence and just troll parrying you 100% of the time. It can be done, but its way more effort and you're better off just doing it manually (since most people can count to ten). That's why I'd agree that limb offenses as a general rule are way less linear than afflicting.

    Of course, that kind of goes up in smoke when fighting something like monk, because spp left spp right hfp left hfp right laughs at your pro parrying.

    Cassius
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't know, I definitely notice differences on a per-opponent basis when it comes to stacking afflictions.Some people are smart with their priorities and change them in response to what they have, which is where skill and expertise comes in. Others use the stock setup and can be abused very badly.

    Limb offenses may not be as linear in application, but they benefit from being a prep-based offense that is incredibly difficult to reset. Lock-oriented affliction offenses tend to fall apart if you assumed the wrong cure (thanks mentals) or if passive curing gets lucky - for instance, when you manage to lock a cleric after several rounds of failure, only to have healing rite hit numbness, which opens up tree, which happens to open up focus, which cures off anorexia... and then you get absolved.


    CassiusDicene
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 727 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I dunno. If they eat kelp first, stack more kelp. If they eat maidenhair first, stack more maidenhair. Mandrake... etc. There's only so much you can do when getting hit by 2+ affs every 2-2.5s. I don't usually play aff classes to lock though, takes too long comparitively and isn't worth it in most cases.
    Ahkan
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    So I'm getting reports that battleaxe Reave is a tad too powerful. However, I'm running the numbers here, and while they are indeed high, I'm not noticing anything truly extreme - would anyone have some logs that would help demonstrate the issue, if there is one?

    I'm comparing the new numbers to the old (pre-changes) claymores, and the only combination that reaches the damage output of an old level 3 claymore is a heavy level 3 battleaxe in lionstance, where the damage number is pretty much the same, but the battleaxe is slower by 0.25s. No other combination that I can find comes anywhere close to the old claymores.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    I'll have to look for a log, but with negating you're actually able to get up to some crazy shenanigans where it's like
    axe damage
    soulquench
    negating
    axe damage
    soulquench 
    In the same dsl.
     Here we goooo. This is a non-arti axe outside of lionstance.



    [ Ahkan ]
    Health : 471/575 [ 81%]
    Mana   : 358/449 [ 79%]
    Your aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
    def- anti-weapon field
    You pick strychnine.
    You reave yourself furiously with a dwarven battleaxe.
    H -69c [12.0%] [130]
    Soulquench hit.
    H -68u [11.8%] [68]
    A ghastly aura envelops yourself momentarily.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You pick botulinum.
    You reave yourself furiously with a dwarven battleaxe.
    H -71c [12.3%] [133]
    Soulquench hit.
    H -68u [11.8%] [68]
    A sense of extreme nausea washes over you.
    aff+ nausea
    bal:3.60
    You focus on your essence and send its portion storming into your body, curing the effects of nausea and causing significant damage.
    Your stomach becalms itself.
    aff- nausea
    H -51c [8.9%] [64]
    eq:2.68 eb:3.58
    [ Ahkan ]
    Health : 141/575 [ 24%]
    Mana   : 330/449 [ 73%]
    So a few problems:

    #1. Claymore damage was always too much. Claymore damage is likely too much.  Not sure this is a good baseline.

    #1b. Claymore's would be more manageable if they were just a single hit, single toxin. Everything gets weird when you can dsl with strychnine.

    #2. Looking for logs or will make some.
    image
  • OzreasOzreas Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭

    Maintaining your momentum, you fluently flow into the stance of the Lion.
    Devotion burning in your eyes, you raise an imperious hand towards yourself and the Rite of Cleansing produces a purifying flame.
    The flame explodes into a searing furnace, burning you painfully.
    Damage Taken: 17 fire, mental (raw damage: 43)
    You rub some strychnine on a dwarven battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a dwarven battleaxe.
    Damage Taken: 75 cutting, physical (raw damage: 162)
    Extreme heat roars through your body at the touch of a dwarven battleaxe.
    Afflicted: ablaze
    Damage Taken: 26 fire, mental (raw damage: 64)
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    Afflicted: sensitivity
    You rub some strychnine on a dwarven battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a dwarven battleaxe.
    Damage Taken: 100 cutting, physical (raw damage: 162)
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Cleansing to burst into flames and wreathe itself around yourself.
    Damage Taken: 23 fire, mental (raw damage: 42)
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s

    That's with faithroot, so I'm never losing the rites. ;)
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    Like I said in my initial nub post, my impression was "wow, this seems pretty powerful" when you consider I can also flare without losing my rite now. But... We need Septus type inputs and I hope everything is considered within the context of a game that has a lot of very powerful things in general.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2015

    Here's what Ahkan was talking about:

    Theophilus secures his previously wielded item and instantly draws a rune-inscribed lochaber axe into his left hand.
    Theophilus reaves you furiously with a rune-inscribed lochaber axe.
    Your shield absorbs some of the damage.
    Damage Taken: 50 cutting, physical (raw damage: 131)
    As the weapon strikes you, you feel your health start to slip away as it hungrily feeds from you.
    Damage Taken: 76 unblockable (raw damage: 76)
    A ghastly aura envelops you momentarily.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    Theophilus reaves you furiously with a rune-inscribed lochaber axe.
    Your shield absorbs some of the damage.
    Damage Taken: 51 cutting, physical (raw damage: 135)
    As the weapon strikes you, you feel your health start to slip away as it hungrily feeds from you.
    Your faith decreases as you fall to the might of Theophilus.
    You have been slain by Theophilus.
    You have lost the insomnia defence.
    A living daegger comes racing in towards Delra, stopping unnaturally quickly to land in his grasp.
    You have nothing that can be stored in the Rift.
    Your starburst tattoo flares as the world is momentarily blurred in white light.
    Damage Taken: 76 unblockable (raw damage: 76)
    A sense of extreme nausea washes over you.
    You are afflicted with nausea.
    Theophilus sends his essence storming through your body, curing the effects of nausea and causing significant damage.
    Your stomach becalms itself.
    You have cured nausea.
    Damage Taken: 48 cold, mental (raw damage: 71)

    That's a 301 damage DSL. When you consider that I roll into fights with about 600 health and this goes off when you're below 65% health, this can get problematic very quickly and it's made even more problematic by the fact that this is bread and butter PvP attack, their "PvP bashcombo" if you will.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    JulesCassiusIfreann
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, my thoughts on this.

    Reave ramps up pretty high. Once I hit the threshold for procs to start firing, I'm never coming back from that. Maybe if reave ramped up slower? I dunno.

    Claymore damage was never ok. Comparing reaving axe damage to claymores is not ok. Claymores were 0 buy in, 0 prep, show up to the fight with an investment and start 1 shotting aspects out of a fight. We call it the Septus. It's not ok.

    Note: I like Septus, he's a nice guy. 
    image
    JulesMathiaus
  • OzreasOzreas Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    That being said, plz2not change reave, it's so delicious.
    DiceneIniar
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 727 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My impressions so far is that the damage enhancements throw things off quite a bit. When I see burning tick I know they just ate a ton of damage; dk with negating can probably do that even better, but loses out on cleansing so is probably in a similar position. Rg would be brutal. When pushing reave damage the burst is high but slow, so pushing someone into a health range to get the enhancement happens pretty regularly. Usually my health goes something like 100%-80%-95%-60%-90%-40% etc. The changes are big but slow, but when the enhancements are based on a health range, that's not really a gating factor.

    An alternative might be raising the initial entry for lionstance by another reave combo (and leaving tgs at the current threshold). That might give more reason to use tgs, as the only reason I can see to use it currently would be as rg to fit a second reave combo inside the knife window. Personally I'd be more inclined to say the enhancements are the major issue (because they're too easy to make fire currently).

    AhkanCassius
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also, there are situations where it's still better to roll up and claymore someone, which is still a problem. Maybe claymores should just be single slash, high cutting weapons. 
    image
  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2015
    Wysrias said:

    Lock-oriented affliction offenses tend to fall apart if you assumed the wrong cure (thanks mentals) or if passive curing gets lucky - for instance, when you manage to lock a cleric after several rounds of failure, only to have healing rite hit numbness, which opens up tree, which happens to open up focus, which cures off anorexia... and then you get absolved.

    Just for the record, because this keeps coming up over the last few days, I cured impatience before you hit me with numbness, so I was never "locked," notwithstanding the healing rite tick several seconds later.  I also never had anorexia.
    EldrethVerexa
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    I wasn't referring to that fight this time, though I recall in that fight that no cure commands went in between the healing rite + tree use and then the absolve. At least from my perspective, it looked like everything else was still in place.


  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    I have asked around but no one seems to know the answer to this:

    What, exactly, is a person doing when he or she "reaves" another person (and does it "furiously")?

    reave rēv/
    1. carry out raids in order to plunder.
      • rob (a person or place) of something by force.
        "reft of a crown, he yet may share the feast"
      • steal (something).

    2. I just wanna know what I'm supposed to be picturing in my head. :P
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 581 ✭✭✭
    Ahkan said:

    I'll have to look for a log, but with negating you're actually able to get up to some crazy shenanigans where it's like

    axe damage
    soulquench
    negating
    axe damage
    soulquench 
    In the same dsl.
     
    This is exactly what I had messaged @garryn about.  The overlap with both enhancement procs on target health % seem to be a bad call.  And if you aren't dead, it'll happen every other combo.
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