Upcoming Smithing/Weapon/Knight Changes

24

Comments

  • EoghanEoghan Member, Immortal Posts: 649 mod
    edited November 2014
    The current plan is to allow knights to choose a proficiency as they do now, but to be able to swap proficiency every hour. This may change some.
    Like what we're doing? Why not take a second to vote? Vote for Imperian at http://www.imperian.com/vote
  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    Eoghan said:
    The current plan is to allow knights to choose a proficiency as they do now, but to be able to swap proficiency every hour. This may change some.
    Ok. I just wanted to point out that at least now, because smithing isn't a skill necessary for PvE or PvP, knights were one of the good "budget" classes since you only needed dual-trans (which somewhat mitigated the extra 100-lesson-per-weapon-prof cost). If that is changing to the tri-trans model, I'd like for the extra proficiency cost to be factored in as well.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Garryn said:
    Prismatic and AM - the omission is currently intentional, as Devotion Penance bypasses prismatic. Can revisit this if needed.
    So they get to break a prismatic barrier and go back to actually hitting the targets while we get to hellsight through it and hope they decide to drop it? That's... pretty crappy, really. If it makes you feel better about giving us a way to deal with prismatic barrier you can make penance blocked by barrier and we won't mind.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    Cassius
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The prismatic breaking has to take into consideration the prismatic  breaking/penetrating methods open to the rest of the circle. It's nice that they're taking into account global pvp balance as prismatic barriers are known problem in the game. AM has access to Warding, Telepathy/Kaido, rites, penance, shard terrify, All of these things go through barrier. AM has the most widespread access to prismatic barrier penetration. You're vastly overstating the uselessness of penance. Siath thinks it's the end of the world.

    @Ultrix
    I don't see how that's necessary. There's nothing unfair about nudging Knights to follow the tri-trans business model, since the rest of the world already functions off of it. You can use 1 weapon at a time, per hour (plus shortswords) or you can invest in the luxury of being a weapon master and have on demand access to every profession all the time. That's a luxury, not a necessity. I don't see how there's anything wrong with "Your professions comes with default x, shortsword, and you pick a third."

    Are you planning on incorporating (or would you be open to) weapon skills like these for non-knight classes? Defiler and Wardancer come to mind.

    @Khizan
    No one forces you to throw axe direction. 

    Which is a good lead in that bows should be exempt from wielding penalties. This lets you wield bow, shoot sunder direction. Wardens can still do targetshot breaks. Everyone is happy.

    image
    Mathiaus
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I should assume, then, that you're volunteering the Deathknight barrier breaker for the axe, then?

    Seeing as Wytchen and Malignists can both attack through barrier as well as both Necromancer classes having a highly effective(and trivially farmable) consumble that also breaks barriers, I mean? 

    You know, for balance?

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    BathanDicene
  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    My point about penance was simply that there is a difference between an attack going through prismatic and being able to break/remove prismatic. I can penance all day, but if it doesn't make my opponent dive to drop prismatic and they're smart about turning off triggers/curing, I'm stuck. (Or, if you're Mathiaus, you'll start an Ouroboros refuge, hit prismatic, and just watch as everyone in the room tries to hit you for 7 seconds until you flee.)

    As to the "luxury" of multiple weapon profs, it seems a bit odd that we would be adding all these skills with respect to particular types of weapons, but then saying that you have to spend additional resources to gain full-time access to proficiencies in those weapons.  I agree that something like multiple professions is a "luxury", but we're talking about being able to fully make use of your profession's skillsets here. 
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    Tiered proficiencies at Novice, a second at Gifted and a final at Mythical. I reckon 3/6 dsl weapons is fair game - you want the rest, just wait or spend lessons.

    E: knights are gonna be so badass
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • ArakisArakis Member Posts: 130 ✭✭✭
    @garryn what will happen with Armor stats? will they remain variable or become fixed as well? Also will proficiencies still be learned from various mobiles? or integrated into the classes themselves. If integrated will those of us who invested lessons in the old system be able to have them refunded to put towards the smithing skill that will now be separate?
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember, Beta Testers Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭✭
    @Ultrix Sounds like they need to make the other professions garner more appeal, so everyone isn't profession #1 or #2 flavour of the month. Variety is a great thing. Less stale too.
    image
  • JuranJuran OhioMember, Beta Testers Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Garryn said:
    2. Wielding
    Listing this separately, as it's a big change:
    Wielding a weapon will incur a 2-second delay, during which any attacks performed with the weapon will take 2s longer. This is rather tentative, the goal is to detrivialise weapon swapping mid-fight by giving it an opportunity cost.
    I appreciate the idea of this change quite a bit, and I know the purpose of it is to adjust for knights rather than general classes. However Bards, Wardancers, Outriders, and Assassins do a lot of weapon swapping as part of their class design. I feel like an 'Adaptability' skill that negates this penalty would be required to keep them competitive in their current design.
    Garryn said:
    • Artifact weapons will have the same speed as their non-artifact counter-parts, and a +10%/+15%/+20% to damage
    This is brilliant, and by far the best thing about the changes that you've outlined so far.

    Garryn said:
    Profession-specific weapon stats:
    Whip - Assassin/Renegade weapon - 75/165
    I know that specific numbers are subject to change during testing, but this seems very slow given that whip speed is the only relevant factor for Scourge and that even with Garrote whip speed is far more significant than whip damage.
    Cassius
  • LaethusLaethus Wichita, KSMember Posts: 32 ✭✭

    Garryn said:
    • Artifact weapons will have the same speed as their non-artifact counter-parts, and a +10%/+15%/+20% to damage
    This is brilliant, and by far the best thing about the changes that you've outlined so far.



    I disagree.  This makes a l3 sabre not worth purchasing at all.  I've crunched the numbers, and if you get a level 3 sabre, cut its damage in half to add 10 speed (because everyone is going to) that +20% damage gives it less than 10 damage more than the regularly smithed one.  I don't know about you, but I am not going to pay 2000 credits to get less than 10 damage more.
  • SarriusSarrius Member Posts: 1,319 ✭✭✭✭
    Because it is a sabre and the damage stat doesn't matter on a sabre. Try on something actually meant for damage kills.
  • KyarKyar Member Posts: 6
    edited November 2014
    Just since it hasn't been clarified yet, but does this count for instruments for Bards? Or for wielding a shield? I was assuming it counted for shields, since they -are- weapons for Wardancers, but that has only been implied, not stated directly.

    Bards rewield things literally -constantly-. It also sucks for the rare bard who bothered learning to behead, since it basically means even if instruments aren't weapons, and therefore can be wielded at will, it means wielding a battleaxe (usually the weapon of choice due to shatter/behead both working) sucks.

    Also, how will it work with juggling? Does unwielding a weapon to juggle 3 knives/handaxes suddenly impose an extra 2-second penalty?

    A possible solution is to exclude throwing weapons completely from the penalty too, since it negates them rather harshly. Throw weapon, beckon weapons, then 2s to rewield it, or carry multiples, throw them, with 2s between each throw... I understand most professions that throw weapons don't have to beckon weapons, since they have returning, but it's still a rough penalty for classes -intended- to weapon juggle (in the change wields constantly way).

  • JuranJuran OhioMember, Beta Testers Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Laethus said:
    Juran said:
    This is brilliant, and by far the best thing about the changes that you've outlined so far.

    I disagree.  This makes a l3 sabre not worth purchasing at all.  I've crunched the numbers, and if you get a level 3 sabre, cut its damage in half to add 10 speed (because everyone is going to) that +20% damage gives it less than 10 damage more than the regularly smithed one.  I don't know about you, but I am not going to pay 2000 credits to get less than 10 damage more.
    Affliction speed is one of those things that really should not fluctuate very much if you want the game to be balanced. I'd be okay addressing sabre DPS during the beta, but I am strongly against scaling affliction speed for credits in any class.
    Kyar
  • KyarKyar Member Posts: 6
    Juran said:
    Laethus said:
    Juran said:
    This is brilliant, and by far the best thing about the changes that you've outlined so far.

    I disagree.  This makes a l3 sabre not worth purchasing at all.  I've crunched the numbers, and if you get a level 3 sabre, cut its damage in half to add 10 speed (because everyone is going to) that +20% damage gives it less than 10 damage more than the regularly smithed one.  I don't know about you, but I am not going to pay 2000 credits to get less than 10 damage more.
    Affliction speed is one of those things that really should not fluctuate very much if you want the game to be balanced. I'd be okay addressing sabre DPS during the beta, but I am strongly against scaling affliction speed for credits in any class.
    ...In short if you're chosing a sabre for -damage- you're doing it wrong anyway. You want damage, get a Claymore / Bardiche / Warhammer (Also, I agree with most of the blunt-related comments and prismatic- being unable to hot-swap to break prismatic is a problem). You want a balance, Broadswords or even a scimitar or longswords (depending how you like your balance). You want affliction speed, you got sabres.. and.. uh.. sabres. There's no real reason for Sabres to do good damage in the first place. They serve different purposes, and that part isn't exactly a problem- it's nice that they're actually drastically different now. a 2-handed heavy claymore or warhammer doing drastically higher damage than a sabre? Yes please!

    I want my sabre to be blinding fast, and I want my claymore to hit damned hard.
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭
    Juran said:

    Laethus said:

    Juran said:
    This is brilliant, and by far the best thing about the changes that you've outlined so far.

    I disagree.  This makes a l3 sabre not worth purchasing at all.  I've crunched the numbers, and if you get a level 3 sabre, cut its damage in half to add 10 speed (because everyone is going to) that +20% damage gives it less than 10 damage more than the regularly smithed one.  I don't know about you, but I am not going to pay 2000 credits to get less than 10 damage more.Affliction speed is one of those things that really should not fluctuate very much if you want the game to be balanced. I'd be okay addressing sabre DPS during the beta, but I am strongly against scaling affliction speed for credits in any class.

    Unfortunately, renegade/assassin/diabolist don't follow this mantra.
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    This may come as a shock to some people, but a level 3 sabre has never been worth purchasing for anything other than the convenience of never needing one smithed again. These changes are definitely a net buff to artifact sabres, in that you won't have to worry about a smithed sabre being the optimal choice - your weapon will -always- be better than the smithed alternatives, and they won't decay, which is a concern considering the very low decay time on weapons now. On top of that you have the benefit not needing to purchase a crystehl whetstone to mitigate the even shorter decay time.

    Are they worth it now? No, absolutely not. But plenty of artifacts aren't really worth their cost, and yet people still buy them regularly.


    MenochAhkan
  • JuranJuran OhioMember, Beta Testers Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Amusingly, prior to Khizan's Smithing changes in the last classlead round the L3 sabre was just flat better in every category. It was higher DPS than the axe and broadsword due to its increased attack speed. You had no reason to use any one-handed sword other than the sabre unless you were forced to pair it with a slower equilibrium attack like flare or battlecry.

    Cassius said:
    Unfortunately, renegade/assassin/diabolist don't follow this mantra.
    This is true, and there have been many arguments had about it too. That said, both daegger hunt and dstab are mitigated by their secondaries. You may have noticed the very careful balancing done to Spatium that prevents you from making proper use of the stronger attacks like Shadowplant without giving up dstab speed.

    I do not expect knights to be an eq/bal combo class in the same way Assassin is, so this avenue of bottlenecking the artifact does not exist. It is much better for game balance this way, and I am glad that Garryn is doing it proactively.
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭
    Juran said:


    This is true, and there have been many arguments had about it too. That said, both daegger hunt and dstab are mitigated by their secondaries. You may have noticed the very careful balancing done to Spatium that prevents you from making proper use of the stronger attacks like Shadowplant without giving up dstab speed.


    I do not expect knights to be an eq/bal combo class in the same way Assassin is, so this avenue of bottlenecking the artifact does not exist. It is much better for game balance this way, and I am glad that Garryn is doing it proactively.
    This really is only true from L2 to L3 for assassin I think. L2 fast syncs within 0.01s. Non arti/L1 are slower than shadowplant and other skill balances. That being said, non-arty is really fast enough.
  • LinsletLinslet Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭
    Speaking from that spatium beta, yes, level 2 dirk is optimal. You can push the excellent sync into the level 3 dirk if you have a diadem.

    There are a myriad of differences between dirk and sabre though.  A sabre will be able to gain that +10 speed from forged effects, whereas even artifact dirks are really going to get no benefit at all from the smithing changes as no weapon stat does anything meaningful to a dirk. Also, a dirk isn't doing limb damage or anything other than the affliction.  I also agree with @Juran on whip stats probably needing a little examination there.

    I don't know enough about diab to comment on daegger hunt.

    Sharp flail is going to be fun.
    Today we shall die.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Linslet said:
    A sabre will be able to gain that +10 speed from forged effects
    The sabre is effectively going to be balanced around always having that active; it is not going to be an actual speed bonus, it is going to be a 'feat tax'.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    SarriusMenoch
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember, Beta Testers Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭✭
    Currently, daegger hunt for a level 2 daegger allows me to afflict every other deadeyes as lich in fast statpack (2.1s balance) but that's only because my system lags enough that when the commands go through, it lines up. L2 daegger is 4.4s balance, so queuing attacks for afflicting with it wouldn't work for me.

    As long as you would wait for daegger balance to come back for a l2 daegger, you can afflict super well, since that .2 sec difference is worth the wait.
    image
  • LaethusLaethus Wichita, KSMember Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Sarrius said:
    Because it is a sabre and the damage stat doesn't matter on a sabre. Try on something actually meant for damage kills.

    I understand what you're saying.  I was just considering saving up for a level 3 sabre but now there's no point.  Maybe I'll save up for a surcoat and a +2 con belt.

  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    If you're buying a sabre (or most offensive artifacts) before tanking artifacts, you're getting really bad advice.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Iniar said:
    If you're buying a sabre (or most offensive artifacts) before tanking artifacts, you're getting really bad advice.

    This, this, this. You know how much damage a person with an L3 weapon and no tanking artifacts does? 

    None, because they died 5 seconds into the fight.


    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    Menoch
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think a lot of that type of thinking depends on your statpack/play style/interest in min maxxing, for what it's worth.

    On-topic, is there going to be a path to victory for strong claymore Knights, or is going to be one of those situations where we hit reasonably hard in burst and then just hope for the best? I'm totally fine with this, FWIW.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • LaethusLaethus Wichita, KSMember Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Khizan said:
    Iniar said:
    If you're buying a sabre (or most offensive artifacts) before tanking artifacts, you're getting really bad advice.

    This, this, this. You know how much damage a person with an L3 weapon and no tanking artifacts does? 

    None, because they died 5 seconds into the fight.



    Thanks for the advice guys.  I'm kinda new to looking into buying bigger artifacts because I've finally bought all the low end artifacts I think I'll want or need.  I'm doing it the expensive way though.  Buying low level credit packages and saving them :(  Wish I could justify spending $1000 in credits, but I don't even own a $1000 guitar, and that would take priority.


  • LalaithLalaith Member Posts: 13 ✭✭
    edited November 2014
    Any chance I could know if you guys are planning on changing the number of ingots things take to forge? Standardizing or anything like it?

    Oh, also! How is fullplate gonna work? Am I going to have to buy a trade skill for my class' best armour?
  • SarriusSarrius Member Posts: 1,319 ✭✭✭✭
    It will likely just be put in skill 2.
  • KyarKyar Member Posts: 6
    side note: How will this work with sigils? Say, monoliths/cubes/eye sigils wielded and thrown down?

    Will you take a penalty to re-wield your weapon? Take a penalty to even -wield- the sigil?

    I know they aren't as heavily used as they should be, but it's Magick's only defense against consecration and phase- and really the eye sigils themselves aren't too adequate as is.
Sign In or Register to comment.