Upcoming Smithing/Weapon/Knight Changes

GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
As announced, Smithing is going to be moved into a general skill, and knights will be getting a third skill. Here is some more information on all of this.
Please remember that all this is still tentative and may (and likely will) change during implementation and the beta. Especially numbers will be subject to further tweaks depending on feedback. At this point, this information should be considered as a rough overview of the upcoming changes.

1. Weapons

  • The to-hit stat will be removed; each weapon will have two main stats (damage/speed) and up to two extra properties
  • Weapons can have one extra property, two if crystehl is used or it's an artifact weapon
  • weapon properties include (some of those cannot be placed on the same weapon at once):

         * heavy: add 2 more ingots, get +20% damage and -20% speed
         * light: +10 to speed stat, halved damage
         * sharp: higher armor penetration, -25% lifespan
         * blunt: lower armor penetration, +bleeding
         * infused: requires an electrum ingot (new ingot, details later) and a blueshard, gives -10% speed, special effect cooldown reduced by 1s (see below)

  • Resmith will allow smiths to add/remove these properties on artifact weapons at any time. Regular weapons will not be modifiable once made.
  • Weapon stats will be fixed across all weapons of a type
  • The mid-range weapons will receive extra functionality, knights will also receive new attacks that require a specific weapon type (more below)
  • Artifact weapons will have the same speed as their non-artifact counter-parts, and a +10%/+15%/+20% to damage

Profession-specific weapon stats:
Dirk - Assassin/Renegade weapon, stats don't matter - 60/196
Whip - Assassin/Renegade weapon - 75/165
Spear, Trident - Outrider weapon - 86/160
Axe - Outrider throwing axe - 105/205
Glaive, Javelin - Ranger/Amazon weapon - 255/85
Flail - Defiler weapon - 100/165
Sitara - Predator weapon - 80/210 (bone will only determine the color)
(quarterstaves and maces already have fixed stats)

Sword-type weapons (used by knights, etc) weapon stats:
Sabre - 75/215
Scimitar - 100/195, parried attacks still do reduced damage (75%), no venom or limb damage though, on-parry effects (riposte, rebuke, monk guarding throw, etc) will not be triggered if parry is hit
Longsword - 130/170, more bleeding damage
Shortsword - 75/160, bypasses rebounding
Broadsword - 145/150, increased damage against mobiles
Battleaxe (not a sword, but used as one) - 160/140
Claymore, Halberd, Bardiche - two-handed - 190/120

Others:
Club - 70/160
Mace - this one will likely be removed to avoid confusion with the priests' one
Dagger (throwing) - 55/215
Morningstar (blunt) - 130/150
Warhammer (two-handed blunt) - 180/125

2. Wielding

Listing this separately, as it's a big change:
Wielding a weapon will incur a 2-second delay, during which any attacks performed with the weapon will take 2s longer. This is rather tentative, the goal is to detrivialise weapon swapping mid-fight by giving it an opportunity cost.

3. Knights

Chivalry/Brutality will be split into two skills, names to be determined

Skill 1

  • The first skill will receive all the weapon-related skills (proficiencies, raze, impale, engage, etc), archery, and a few other abilities from Chivalry
  • Additionally, several new attacks will be added
  • DSL/RSL/etc will be split into a generic "combo" ability, with the old DSL/... commands provided for convenience
  • there will be new weapon attacks added for the mid-range weapons - longswords, scimitars, and battleaxes
  • Longswords will receive attacks focusing on bleeding-based strategies
  • Scimitars will focus on limb damage (in a very different way than the existing limb classes)
  • Battleaxes will focus on momentum-based speed/damage modifiers

Skill 2

  • The second skill will receive falconry, mounted attacks, defences (weathering, fitness, etc), and weapon enhancements
  • Weapon enhancements are an expansion of the existing purifications/etchings/soulbinds concept
  • Like now, each weapon will be able to hold two special effects (three, at a stat penalty) that will flare alongside regular attacks
  • Enhancements on a weapon will be changeable at an equilibrium cost
  • Enhancements will only work for knights now, unless stated otherwise
  • Rather than being random, each enhancement has its own per-target cooldown, limiting how often it can hit
Magick enhancements:
  • Hawk - beckon weapons, works for non-knights
  • Flame - ablaze, damage if already on fire, 4s cd
  • Snowflake - freeze, damage if already shivering, 4s cd
  • Bolt - epilepsy, 6s cd
  • Knife - negate armour for 2s, 10s cd
  • Lightning - electric damage, slightly scaling to affcount, 7s cd
  • Boomerang - weapon returns to its owner if thrown, works for non-knights
  • Drum - razing with this weapon can remove prismatic as well, has a longer balance (3s) when it does that
Demonic enhancements:
  • Soulquench - damage, 5s cd
  • Agony - blocks passive curing, effect lasts 8s, 8s cd
  • Rending - breaks a random limb, 8s cd
  • Sundering - arcing with this weapon breaks shields and prismatic barriers
  • Draining - drains 5% mana, gives to caster, 6s cd
  • Teeth - causes some bleeding, 7s cd
  • Fleshburn - damage based on bleeding, 6s cd
  • Negating - clears all pending enhancement effect cooldowns when it fires (this happens even if there are no cooldowns), 6s cd
Anti-magick enhancements:
  • Emblazing - fire damage, 5s cd
  • Mirroring - repeat one aff, 10s cd
  • Purification - drains 5% mana, gives to caster, 6s cd
  • Banishment - damage scaling to affcount if target has hellsight, nothing otherwise (but still uses up the cd), 3s cd
  • Purge - afflict manaleech, 7s cd
  • Faithroot - while wielding this weapon, devotion flare does 40% less damage, but does not consume the rite
  • Burning - put target on fire, damage if they already are, 4s cd
  • Resonate - if put on a banded weapon, the owner can find the location of this weapon, works for non-knights

4. Other changes

We will very likely be getting rid or significantly altering the Vivisect ability, as it currently presents a very substantial design block, and possibly adding some new things to Necromancy as a result. This is extremely tentative right now, and will depend on how the changes to Deathknights end up looking like.
MathiausOystirLinslet
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Comments

  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    RIP WysMart, your one stop shopping solution for all your artifact-tier smithing needs (2014-2014)


    AhkanMathiausIniar
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When rewielding after curing crippled limbs, will I proc the wielding penalty?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • ShouShou Member Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
    Can we have Quickdraw only work when something specified is actually not wielded, instead of it rewielding the specified items every time? I know people use quickdraw for safety measures, not necessarily to change tactics.
    image
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just have broken arms not force you to unwield (dumb mechanic) then remove disarms (also dumb mechanics). I like the wielding penalty
    image
    IniarLaethusSarrius
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    @Garryn, what kind of armour penetration formulas are you thinking of? (Blunt spears whee) Also, would you please consider adding a new weapon attack for warhammers? (Please o please)

    Also, I don't know how AM/M people would feel about this, but are Hawk and Resonate really necessary? Could you ask for cooler effects instead? Who doesn't use a wriststrap these days, and since no weapon would be too precious, is there really much value in chasing down -one- weapon?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    Iniar said:

    @Garryn, what kind of armour penetration formulas are you thinking of? (Blunt spears whee) Also, would you please consider adding a new weapon attack for warhammers? (Please o please)


    Also, I don't know how AM/M people would feel about this, but are Hawk and Resonate really necessary? Could you ask for cooler effects instead? Who doesn't use a wriststrap these days, and since no weapon would be too precious, is there really much value in chasing down -one- weapon?
    Iniar - we haven't seen @Garryn‌'s comm cost on those weapons :(
    Iniar
  • GlijijeGlijije Member Posts: 5
    What will a hammer of forging do?
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member Posts: 291 ✭✭✭
    Will there be new kestrel and mount abilities in Skill 2? I ask because Skill 1 explicitly states that there will be new attacks, but Skill 2 doesn't. Also because kestrels and mounts are cool.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    Garryn said:

    2. Wielding

    Listing this separately, as it's a big change:
    Wielding a weapon will incur a 2-second delay, during which any attacks performed with the weapon will take 2s longer. This is rather tentative, the goal is to detrivialise weapon swapping mid-fight by giving it an opportunity cost.

    How is this going to work with Warden? Currently, they're designed around a "break with glaive, switch to bow, incendiary, switch back to glaive" kill? Other classes like Outrider(spear/axe) or Assassin(whip/dirk) dual-wield 1h weapons and so they can always forgo the shield for the speed if they so wish, but Wardens have to switch out to a 2h weapon and don't get that option. 

    Additional concerns:

    Resmith: Can this please be somewhat low in the skillset, or a skill that appears in both Chivalry and Smithing? I don't want to be forced to learn a crafting skill specifically so that I can use my artifact weapon to its full potential.

    Actually, I'd really like it if Resmithing could be made a general skill that doesn't require a forge, since the purpose of an artifact weapon is somewhat defeated if it becomes optimal to have a spread of weapons to cover various situations, like wanting +bleed+speed in some situations but +damage+ARP in others; without an artifact weapon I'd just have two normal weapons, but with an artifact weapon I lose my benefit as soon as I switch away from it.

    Shifting Weapons: Right now, my shifting weapon has the same enchants in every single form. My mercurial trident has emblazon/mirroring because those are the enchants my claymore has. I would really like it if my sabre didn't have to be heavy and sharp because my claymore is.

    Blunt: Blunt weapons doing extra bleeding just seems wrong to me. Could this possibly be changed to 'serrated' instead? It makes way more sense.

    Resonate: How about this breaks prismatic barriers somehow instead of providing an essentially worthless benefit? AM is the only circle without a prismatic breaking enhancement as it stands now.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    Iniar
  • LaethusLaethus Wichita, KSMember Posts: 32 ✭✭
    What happens to the dwarf bonus and the Hammer of Forging?
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sunder: At the moment, sunder attempts are typically stopped by unwielding a weapon, wielding a bow/handaxe, hitting the sunderer with it, and switching back to a main weapon to continue the fight. As these changes are written, doing so would incur a 2s penalty on the axe-toss and a 2s penalty when switching back. Sunder could probably stand to be removed entirely, but I'd like this to be considered if it is kept.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    • Enhancements on a weapon will be changeable at an equilibrium cost
    Is this going to be something that is comboable in some manner like Templar Bladefire in Aetolia, or are we just looking at a 2s+ period of not attacking so that there's a cost to changing tactics? Also, since the proc's won't be random, are both proc's going to activate if they're both off cooldown, or are we looking at 1 proc per combo?
    image
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    The Wardancer class suffers from years and years of band-aid classleads seeking to patch up their (high|low) damage and to restrain their affliction speed with the result being that, right now, Wardancers are currently a clumsy ugly mess. 

    Bloodthirst juggling with kicks is awkward and unpleasant to deal with, and the 'heavier' kicks are so slow that they've pretty much rotated completely out of use; keeping bloodthirst up is so important that kickflip has become basically the only kick you'll ever see. They've lost their status as the best afflictors and it's been years since they were a solid damage threat other than a gimmick bladespin>strike|strike|sdrop|eviscerate combo that tanky people can tank anyways. Their shield attacks do no damage, so they basically have to roll sword/sword for anything but flicking. They're not even particularly good bashers anymore. They've just become a very unsastisfying class because, for all their abilities, all they can really do is DSL and they don't even do that as well as a knight does, knights being better at both afflicting and damaging.


    With the all the various changes to the weapons going into play, I think that the Wardancers deserve a bit of time in the spotlight. These changes would necessitate a balance pass anyways, since sword strikes are the majority of their offense and this necessitates a heavy-duty examination regardless of any filed classleads. I'd just like to see it go a little further and hopefully refine the Wardancer into a coherent whole with skills that actually work together instead of a mismatched heap of abilities held together with bandaids and baling wire.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    Dicene
  • LaethusLaethus Wichita, KSMember Posts: 32 ✭✭
    edited November 2014
    I got to thinking about it, and half damage is a huge hit.  So based off of the new system, my level 1 claymore is going from a 204/136 to a 209/120.  Losing 16 points of speed isn't worth gaining 5 damage, in my opinion, And making my claymore only 105 damage to have 130 speed is even more crazy.  I'm understanding this correctly, right?
  • OystirOystir Member Posts: 311 ✭✭✭
    This looks awesome.
     You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    @Khizan, I don't disagree with what you have said about wardancers, but my question would be: what niche would WD fill in AM?

    Afflictions - Templar and Outrider, Twinshot Predator
    Limb instantkill - BBT Monk, Incendiary Ranger, Sitara Predator
    Bleeding instantkill - Outrider
    Freezing mechanic - Outrider
    Damage - Templar (+- tipslash, non-psoul ranger)
    Mana instantkill - Priest
    Unblockable damage - Priest
    Dual pressure - Priest
    Team Buffs - Devotioners
    Range - Rangers, Monks

    The major thing that AM doesn't have is a mental instantkill but I doubt that'd fly well. If you want to keep the damage train rolling, you'd have to set it up to be about bursts of damage which (so far) hasn't lent itself well against artifacted people (except 50% lavablast tqvm). Thematically, bursts superficially seem to be suitable.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cleave will still be a thing, right? I am very concerned about this.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
    Eldreth
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member Posts: 291 ✭✭✭
    Um.. what about armor? Is that going to change?
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    Okay, let me see.

    Wristraps, fist sigils, and banding prevent the weapon from being unwielded up[on an arm break, so that shouldn't be a significant concern.

    Quickdraw etc, yeah, that shouldn't apply the penalty if you just wield the same thing back

    I'll figure something out for wardens.

    No plans for more kestrel/hound/mount abilities, but if you have any interesting ideas that won't have a significant impact, we can do something there.

    Dwarven bonus increases weapon lifespan nowadays (it doesn't affect stats at all), so that'll likely stay as-is. As for hammer, undecided there as of yet.

    Blunt->serrated, sure.

    Morph weapons, yeah, we'll figure something out there

    Prismatic and AM - the omission is currently intentional, as Devotion Penance bypasses prismatic. Can revisit this if needed.

    Switching enchants will not be comboable.

    Sunder - I'll keep that in mind,

    Cleave remains, sure.

    Wardancers - no specific plans here, Sarrius keeps pushing for some changes, so I'm waiting to see what he submits.
    IniarSarrius
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't main AM but I think they should have prismatic killer too. Or maybe even make broadswords break prismatic - thereby triggering that weapon swap penalty.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member Posts: 291 ✭✭✭
    Mostly I'd just like to see Skill 2 gain the abilities relevant to training the mount. Maybe also the +1 to trainable skills along with it, and definitely the fording passive from Taming Mount. The training skills could be restricted by having the mount be class specific or unique in some way. It also wouldn't add any power to the knights that the top end of fighters doesn't have already.

    That's my serious suggestion!



    Other things that would be cool but I haven't really thought through are:

    A patrol skill that has the animal alert you when it finds an enemy. Bit like alertness, but only in the room that the animal is in as it wanders.

    A special saddle that makes it so the knight isn't dismounted from being prone. It would work for boys with crippled legs.

    A skill to call the mount and animal at the same time, like a magical, armored Disney princess.

    At least one class specific skill for mounts, because I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.


  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    Garryn said:
    Prismatic and AM - the omission is currently intentional, as Devotion Penance bypasses prismatic. Can revisit this if needed.
    DKs already can break prismatic with soulspear, yet your proposal would give them a second method by which to break prismatic. Why is that necessary?

    More importantly, note that penance doesn't actually -break- the prismatic - you're basically standing there hoping that it will force them to dive or something and drop prismatic. That is not the same as an active break/removal skill.
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    Ultrix said:
    Garryn said:
    Prismatic and AM - the omission is currently intentional, as Devotion Penance bypasses prismatic. Can revisit this if needed.
    DKs already can break prismatic with soulspear, yet your proposal would give them a second method by which to break prismatic. Why is that necessary?

    More importantly, note that penance doesn't actually -break- the prismatic - you're basically standing there hoping that it will force them to dive or something and drop prismatic. That is not the same as an active break/removal skill.
    Rangers/Amazons can already break prismatic barrier too (or one can, and the other bypasses? There's something funky going on there)

    Soulspear requires you to have the consumable item in your inventory, and they have a decay time of less than a week. They're a viable option when you have plenty of necromancers around who have all stocked up in recent fights, but otherwise it's not really an option. You cannot preserve them in any fashion, nor can you pool them.


  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    Wysrias said:
    Rangers/Amazons can already break prismatic barrier too (or one can, and the other bypasses? There's something funky going on there)
    Amazon's javelin throw can break prismatic, but Ranger's glaivetoss cannot. I believe one of the classleads (115 maybe?) is meant to address this.

    Putting that aside, I was limiting my comments to what knights had presently, as my understanding was that the enhancements being discussed were knights-only. If we start opening this up about other classes, there are a bunch of other classes who have skills that bypass prismatic (e.g., hunter basilisk, wytches have something too), so I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In room versus out room prismatic breaking, (sometimes very) limited consumable tied to a single player versus resourceless breaks. They are very different propositions. That said, if 2 Knight classes get prismatic breakers, all knights should.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    Sagron said:

    This blow, driven by righteous frustration at being unable to properly chop an enemy into sashimi, is an unstoppable but highly innacurate juggernaught of heavy metal thing on a stick. 

    Finally, a use for morningstars? (Or are morningstars 1-handed? I've never seen anyone use one.)
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2014
    1 handed (and also completely badass)

    @Sagron also, hammer Knights get a move called 'Overdrive Mega Godzilla Full Force Smash" where they use 6 seconds to break all in-room prismatics, and slam the ground, preventing prismatics from being used for the next 30 seconds.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Sagron
  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    On a slightly different note, are the various weapon proficiencies going to be moved into the new skillset(s), such that there is not a separate 100-lesson-per-weapon-proficiency cost for knights? 
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