Relics Part Two

2456

Comments

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One thing I really really really hate about this system is that it's yet another system that's powered almost entirely by how much I'm willing to spam bash.

    At 75% sect belief per shrine building a decent shrine net basically entails logging on and bashing for hours and hours a day and I, frankly, have no desire whatsoever to do that ever again. I bashed up Flames and I bashed up Jackals and then I bashed up full sect rituals and goddamnit I am tired of these systems that require us to spend hours and hours and hours bashing for the benefit of an organization that's going to fall apart whenever the organization's entity gets bored with the jobs and calls it quits.

    It's extremely frustrating that "make them bash forever" is the only way that you guys can think of to get people involved in the system. Couldn't we get some kind of landmarking or something instead? Maybe events where PvP faith is vastly increased and people are encouraged to go kill for their gods? Something other than "roll through Iaat for the 5000th time"?

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    IcariusJules
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2015

    I'd just like to note that the spirit/blood/virtue stuff is fine with me. It's the 75% per shrine that makes it such a brutal slog. 

    Also, Champion status interfering with blood comms is sort of dumb. Killing a champion should still grant blood.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2015
    Khizan said:

    I'd just like to note that the spirit/blood/virtue stuff is fine with me. It's the 75% per shrine that makes it such a brutal slog. 

    Also, Champion status interfering with blood comms is sort of dumb. Killing a champion should still grant blood.

    Only if killing a redemptioner gives me blood too >_> (neither of which will actually happen because it's based on pk xp, AFAIK, and you've seen how willing the admins are to remove that sort of terrible anti-pk effect)
    image
  • SkyeSkye Member Posts: 99 ✭✭✭
    In the log where it says someone spent belief on a shrine at blah location, is it possible to make it clear whether they were sanctifying one of ours or defiling someone elses?
    ** Yes, we're aware of the problems. Please do NOT use any HELP files at the moment.**.
    ** And don't try them now just see if they're really broken. **.
    ** Or credit conversion. Try not to do anything much right now. **.
    ** Don't panic, normal service will be restored as soon as possible. For now, enjoy the wonders of conversation. **.
    *** We will be rebooting in about 60 seconds ***.
    ** Don't panic. Just...stay close to your rosaries **.
    ** Monetary offers for Salvation accepted. **.
  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    Skye said:

    In the log where it says someone spent belief on a shrine at blah location, is it possible to make it clear whether they were sanctifying one of ours or defiling someone elses?

    'Blah' location should tell you whether it's your shrine (sanctifying) or someone else's shrine (probably defiling). You can also cross-check against your actual cult/sect logs (the readlog one) which will tell you when people sanctified.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As the opposite side of the coin, this system is sort of weird because a Khizan player  can sit afk at the Shuk  while the rest of his cult does the work necessary to spread shrines and farm up relics. His investment will be 0% but he will have full access to any perks the rest of the sect may generate. This is  a more likely scenario for things will play out.
    image
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 339 ✭✭✭✭
    Ahkan said:

    His investment will be 0% but he will have full access to any perks the rest of the sect may generate. This is  a more likely scenario for things will play out.

    Like the shard perks and caravans perks are now? Most of the people in an org benefit from the work of a very few. At least this one spreads it out to bashers and questers. 
  • DecDec Member, Immortal Posts: 125 mod
    Ahkan said:

    If a boss drops a relic, could it have a cooldown so it won't drop that relic when it repops .1s later?

    Mobs that drop relics do so with low percentage of the time (with a very few super-boss exceptions) and drop a weighted-random relic each time.  So the chances of the same mob dying, resetting, then dropping the same relic in quick succession should be very low.  If something different is happening, send me a mob number with what's happening.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Krysaliss said:

    Ahkan said:

    His investment will be 0% but he will have full access to any perks the rest of the sect may generate. This is  a more likely scenario for things will play out.

    Like the shard perks and caravans perks are now? Most of the people in an org benefit from the work of a very few. At least this one spreads it out to bashers and questers. 
    Apples and oranges. Shards are based on a harvesting commodity that you have to gathered yourself. Sects, not so much. The belief and shrine web is shared by everyone in your sect. This is why Khizan went poo poo in his panties angry when 80% of Jackals spent all of their time dying and draining belief instead of contributing.

    I don't want Lionas blowing a cooldown when he:
    -Does not bash
    -Did not farm relics or raise shrines
    -Makes terrible decisions for the sake of science.

    I miss Lionas :(
    image
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, relics.

    Can we get a way to make like 1 or 2 mobile shrines? Some of us picked areas for our altar's based on roleplay. We're geographically hindered in Seven Lakes, Al'drym, or the Paran mountains. It is incredibly unlikely that we will interact with one another...ever. The world is so large that it's going to take awhile to bump into one another at 3 rooms a step. Never mind all the bashing and logistics that goes into moving that far. Ideally you could have each 'mobile' shrine cost 100% belief + drops + double/triple the comms? Then make it twice as susceptible to defiling since it's out of network (just like your insurance).

    Long term, you're going to need an x-factor. We're eventually going to establish an equilibrium that benefits everyone or reduces the amount of time we spend on upkeep. You're going to need some random entity (horde) to roll in and disrupt relics/shrines and force us to go out into the world or we're just going to ostrich out and wait until people log off.

    Could we clean up the help files a little? Formatting is bad. Grammar is bad. White space can be your friend. Also, putting the relic inside the shrine, the grammar is all sorts of off. The ambiance is badass but it loses a lot when there's 3-6 errors per blurb.

    Some of these powers are going to be the hunter dilemma. I am just not going to fight some people with these powers up. It's the same as making sanctuary a shrine web ability.
    image
  • SarriusSarrius Member Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bashing turns me off from this system. Why must everything to do with sects be about bashing?
    Jules
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Also, haha, monoliths prevent people from gaining blood comms.

    Since there's no loss of overall EXP from deaths anymore, can Champion/Monoliths lose the whole 'immunity to exp loss' thing so that we can start gaining Blood from those fights? It's very frustrating that participation in the PvP systems removes the rewards for PvP.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2015
    Khizan said:

    Also, haha, monoliths prevent people from gaining blood comms.

    Since there's no loss of overall EXP from deaths anymore, can Champion/Monoliths lose the whole 'immunity to exp loss' thing so that we can start gaining Blood from those fights? It's very frustrating that participation in the PvP systems removes the rewards for PvP.

    Again, Redemption too. It's very frustrating that 1/3 of AM's classes(counting Ranger and Amazon as the same class) have the ability to completely remove the rewards for pvp. There's simply no good reason for any classes to have a blood denying(or immunity from assassination hits) capability and the 2m or 3.5m cooldowns do nothing to make it less stupid. It's just going to exacerbate the advantage that AM already has with such massive numerical superiority and arguably the best bashing class in the game. Redemption's xp/pk/etc denial sucked before, but now that pk xp is intrinsic to a conflict system, it's really about time we did away with that aspect of it. Pretty please?
    image
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2015
    Are we the only classes that get to cheat death or do other professions have similar ways of "cheating" death?  If it's just us, what you ask for sounds reasonable.  If not, maybe all of those classes deserve to be looked at.  By the way, I no longer use redemption, and I thought everyone had agreed that starburst was superior to redemption, so your request seems reasonable (and if there is a why not I am sure we'll hear about it).
  • CassiusCassius Member Posts: 586 ✭✭✭
    Jules said:

    Are we the only classes that get to cheat death or do other professions have similar ways of "cheating" death?  If it's just us, what you ask for sounds reasonable.  If not, maybe all of those classes deserve to be looked at.  By the way, I no longer use redemption, and I thought everyone had agreed that starburst was superior to redemption, so your request seems reasonable (and if there is a why not I am sure we'll hear about it).

    There are no other classes that actually die and get full revival outside of redemption. Other classes have abilities to prolong their life (and nowhere near 2x health) but when they die it counts regardless.
    Dicene
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dicene said:


    Again, Redemption too. 

    I have no objection to this provided that redemption still prevents faith loss from bashing deaths(I am okay with it giving/costing faith on player deaths).

    I want the bashing protection because without that it's basically a crappier starburst, which is a crappy capstone skill.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Luckily, cleansing and bloodsworn are awesome capstones skills!

    It's really weird that despite the constant back and forth over redemption that people didn't realize this was a thing. Champions/Aspects/Redemption have always been a bone of contention with regards to pvp and associated xp/achievements. Sort of a weird disconnect.
    image
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    GDI Starburst. +100% max hp is like a +20 con boost. How is this not dumb. Really. Buying a +3 con boost costs me 2,000 credits. What.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember, Beta Testers Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like we need to make resurrecting not give full health when activated.
    image
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A universally available skill is inherently balanced in a case like this, especially now that many of the various class discrepancies have been handled. 

    Starburst is fine.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    Iniar said:

    GDI Starburst. +100% max hp is like a +20 con boost. How is this not dumb. Really. Buying a +3 con boost costs me 2,000 credits. What.

    On the upside it lets you kill people who are terrible (like me) twice in quick succession (and both deaths "count" for your sect and against theirs)?

    Is your concern that it makes the bigger side's health pool even bigger (which it does seem like it could do)?  
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Khizan said:

    A universally available skill is inherently balanced in a case like this, especially now that many of the various class discrepancies have been handled. 


    Starburst is fine.
    The issue is not availability, but how dumb it is. Resurrection mechanics just need to go away at this point.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2015
    It's a number multiplier. 1 v 2 becomes 2 v 4. 3 v 5 becomes 6 v 10. 5 v 8 becomes 10 v 16. There's a big difference being outnumbered by 2, compared to 4.

    e: sorry for derailing
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • DecDec Member, Immortal Posts: 125 mod
    Let's try to stay on topic, please. This thread is about why you hate love shrines and relics, and not about profession skills.

    Thanks.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Did the problem get address through the off topicness? 

    Redemption isn't allowing for pk experience which isn't generating blood drops. This applies to champion status and those holding monoliths as well, as they never reward pk xp and thus no blood for the blood gods
    image
    TheophilusCadeyrnWysriasDicene
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 728 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So, I've been playing around with defiling a bit to try to get an accurate picture of the numbers. Not much point at this point in actually full on defiling, as noone really has decent relics, but a few observations:

    I don't think its actually possible to drop a shrine down to 0 against a sect that is at all active. Perhaps this is intentional, but I think it might become an issue for when people actually have some of the super good relics. If am picked up 20% eq for instance, I'm pretty confident we could keep it indefinitely.

    The problem that I see is basically that if a shrine is at level 4, you defile for 3%, and they sanctify for that much as well (slightly more, but not really relevant). That's considerably over 24 hours of defiling once every hour without the sect defending at all. If I understand correctly, the defending sect and attacker can both sanctify/defile straight after the opposite action taking place, but worst/best case that'll stalemate, and generally should still work out in the defenders favour (by 2%), given that all shrines with any worthwhile relic will be at level 4.

    As far as I can tell, the only way to do that would be to camp the shrine for over a day, and kill anyone who comes to sanctify (which seems really dodgy to me, not sure if that's ok or not. I'd assume no.) I like that it looks like you'll need to play the long game, but I can see people burning out really fast (both attackers and defenders), since you pretty much have to get it every hour on both ends.

    I think you either need a decay time on relics (so the top dog team of the month can't be running around with mega buffs constantly), need to make it more viable to drop shrines containing relics (maybe they get defiled/sanctified for more damage at a time or something), or need a way to remove a relic from a shrine without actually destroying it.

    Of course, I very may well be missing a big part of the puzzle here as the system is very new and I'm sure there are still aspects we've not figured out, but I'd figure it'd be good to bring this up before we start hitting the big items and it turns out we can't actually get them away from each other.

  • TheophilusTheophilus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 731 ✭✭✭✭
    Septus said:

    So, I've been playing around with defiling a bit to try to get an accurate picture of the numbers. Not much point at this point in actually full on defiling, as noone really has decent relics, but a few observations:

    I don't think its actually possible to drop a shrine down to 0 against a sect that is at all active. Perhaps this is intentional, but I think it might become an issue for when people actually have some of the super good relics. If am picked up 20% eq for instance, I'm pretty confident we could keep it indefinitely.

    The problem that I see is basically that if a shrine is at level 4, you defile for 3%, and they sanctify for that much as well (slightly more, but not really relevant). That's considerably over 24 hours of defiling once every hour without the sect defending at all. If I understand correctly, the defending sect and attacker can both sanctify/defile straight after the opposite action taking place, but worst/best case that'll stalemate, and generally should still work out in the defenders favour (by 2%), given that all shrines with any worthwhile relic will be at level 4.

    As far as I can tell, the only way to do that would be to camp the shrine for over a day, and kill anyone who comes to sanctify (which seems really dodgy to me, not sure if that's ok or not. I'd assume no.) I like that it looks like you'll need to play the long game, but I can see people burning out really fast (both attackers and defenders), since you pretty much have to get it every hour on both ends.

    I think you either need a decay time on relics (so the top dog team of the month can't be running around with mega buffs constantly), need to make it more viable to drop shrines containing relics (maybe they get defiled/sanctified for more damage at a time or something), or need a way to remove a relic from a shrine without actually destroying it.

    Of course, I very may well be missing a big part of the puzzle here as the system is very new and I'm sure there are still aspects we've not figured out, but I'd figure it'd be good to bring this up before we start hitting the big items and it turns out we can't actually get them away from each other.

    Don't defile our shrines. Just kill Lothesh and Goras and be happy. :'(
    (Ring): Lartus says, "I heard Theophilus once threw a grenade and killed ten people."
    (Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."
    Septus
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,173 admin
    Shines are very hard to kill on purpose. We also erred on the side of hard to kill off vs easy to kill off. There will probably be some slight adjustments over the next few weeks if it turns out to be impossible, but we will be watching how it goes.

    Septus
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The problem is that if shrines are too hard to kill off it's both worthless as a conflict mechanism(since there's no reason to seriously defend them) and a very first-come-first-served system(since territory claimed by a sect can't reliably be taken).

    The further a shrine is from the altar the easier it should be to defile, imo. 

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    ShouKrysalissEldrethWysrias
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,173 admin
    Khizan said:

    The further a shrine is from the altar the easier it should be to defile, imo. 

    We are considering this actually. Also, increasing the upkeep on shrines further from the altar.

Sign In or Register to comment.