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Classleads 2019

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  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 149 ✭✭
    I was asked to post this:

    (Ring): Asmund says, "Eochaid! since I can't reliably post on the forum, please
    kinda point out that galt is and not including crusades in his templar
    comparison. and when I get to class on wenesday, I'll post saying that as a
    templar, I don't feel that dk is super stronger. I feel like they are on par
    with each other."

  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 293 ✭✭✭
    All I'm getting from that log, is that knight vs knight looks like one of the most boring **** things imaginable.
    NarujJalaras
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 297 ✭✭✭
    I'm not looking at your numbers.

    I went through and charted out all your afflictions, and got 2.7 per combo without including chill. I then included the 10 uses of chill, which brought it close to 3 affs/combo. I'm not double counting chill. I got the 2.7 without counting a single chill, after all.
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 698 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    Even at that amazing aff rate difference, it's 1 net salve aff every 10s or so (E: to unobfuscate, it's 1 aps v 1.1 aps, neglecting split cures). If you spammed benzene/benzedrine/chill, you're barely pushing salve balance til a break and not really doing anything else. If you use herb toxins, you just throw essence into the wind since 2 salves get cured off before the next balance. You need butisol or limb breaks to take advantage of it, which is not enough of a benefit from the aff effects that it really makes much difference compared to Templar or RG if they split a kelp/ns stack.

    How about a compromise - we remove the enhancements from DK weapons, add them to armor, then they proc 2 at a time every time they get hit! Seems legit. (Read: lol that totem classlead)

    JalarasRokas
  • ArachArach Member Posts: 29
    Was going to put my two cents in, decided it wasn't worth the time or effort to argue with someone who is -obviously- right and knows everything. Enjoy the 'DK and Templar are SO much better than RG' argument you guys got going on though.
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    I’ve done some rudimentary testing on Defiler post changes, and I believe Defiler was overnerfed. The entangle limit of 10s is a bit harsh, and I’d suggest either requiring rigidity as a prerequisite or shortening the entangle limit to 7 or 8s. 

    The entropy, devastate, and bellow nerfs neutered Defiler completely. I’m not savvy enough with numbers balancing to identify what the correct damage should be, but right now the changes to Defiler pretty much ensure no one will play it. 

    Hopefully the various fight club matches will provide some clarity on further balance.
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 293 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    Arach said:
    Was going to put my two cents in, decided it wasn't worth the time or effort to argue with someone who is -obviously- right and knows everything. Enjoy the 'DK and Templar are SO much better than RG' argument you guys got going on though.
    Anyone who says RG is worse than either of those, clearly hasn't played RG. And definitely hasn't played DK/Templar. Templar is pretty decent but RG is still a hell of a lot better.
    Totems, Wunjo, Nairat, Loshre alone puts them well above the other two.
    eta: When you use them properly, and not just on cooldown.*
    Arach
  • ArachArach Member Posts: 29
    Arach said:
    Was going to put my two cents in, decided it wasn't worth the time or effort to argue with someone who is -obviously- right and knows everything. Enjoy the 'DK and Templar are SO much better than RG' argument you guys got going on though.
    Anyone who says RG is worse than either of those, clearly hasn't played RG. And definitely hasn't played DK/Templar. Templar is pretty decent but RG is still a hell of a lot better.
    Totems, Wunjo, Nairat, Loshre alone puts them well above the other two.
    eta: When you use them properly, and not just on cooldown.*
    Agreed. I just find it amusing that the entire argument is 'oh your affliction rate is higher than his because of lame excuse' to be highly amusing.

    I'm over here laughing at how awful some of the things being said are, while I eat my sandwich.
    Jalaras
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    @galt, you have a lot of feedback and opinions on all the classes. Have you played all of them at the post-avatar level?

    Not a dig, I’m honestly curious. 
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 698 ✭✭✭✭
    That's a little off-topic.

    Could you post the numbers, @Ryse? I figured going beyond bellow and some of the more obvious nerfs (like the parry lol) would be too much, but not so bad that it'd cripple everything.
  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 149 ✭✭
    It isn't that defilier is totally neutered. It can kill its just its a damage class that has worse damage options than other classes that can also switch to heavy afflictions.


    Build time to a defiler damage kill is slower than the build time for a Knight using battleaxes. Took 17 seconds of straight reaves to kill her as a Knight. 27 seconds to build to the kill as a defiler(it actually took longer because I used the seeds which I had pre afflicted with before doing the final test)


  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 149 ✭✭
    edited July 2019
    Looking over the skills and routes in more detail I think defilier overall is at an ok but low tier place. It's mid tier for damage, it doesn't compete with Knights and battles axes, it doesn't come close to bards speed and damage etc but thats ok it doesn't have to be as good as  Knight is at damage if it has other things to fall back on.

    The issue with defilier is all it can really do is damage. If you are looking at reports to bring the class up to par then I'd suggest leaving the damage as it is right now with no major changes but then looking at its afflicting and instant kill route to give it an alternative kill path that isn't just straight damage.
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 297 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    More numbers for the number god, balance for the balance throne:

    Eochaid secures her previously wielded items and instantly draws a gleaming scimitar into her left hand, with a gleaming scimitar flowing into the
    right.
    The shimmering translucent shield around Eochaid fades away.
    Eochaid whips a gleaming scimitar through the air in front of you, to no effect.
    Eochaid hacks at your left leg viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    The weapon sends a shockwave into your left leg, breaking it.
    You are afflicted with crippled left leg.
    Your lungs tighten and it becomes hard to breathe.
    You are afflicted with asthma.
    Eochaid moves in to engage you.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your head viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    Your lungs tighten and it becomes hard to breathe.
    You are afflicted with asthma.
    Eochaid hacks at your head viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Your head trembles slightly under the blow.Switched parry to head!
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    Terror takes hold, as a numb sensation overcomes your body.
    You are afflicted with numbness.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your head viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    Your lungs tighten and it becomes hard to breathe.
    You are afflicted with asthma.
    Eochaid hacks at your head viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Painful bruises are forming on your head.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    You begin sweating heavily, your skin heating to unnatural temperatures.
    You are afflicted with butisol.
    Eochaid sends the cold of the grave to freeze you.
    You have lost the caloric salve defence.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your head viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    Terror takes hold, as a numb sensation overcomes your body.
    You are afflicted with numbness.
    Eochaid swings a gleaming scimitar at you, calmly severing the tendons in your head.
    Your lungs tighten and it becomes hard to breathe.
    You are afflicted with asthma.
    Eochaid sends the cold of the grave to freeze you.
    You have lost the caloric salve defence.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your left arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    You feel your allergy to the sun going into temporary remission.
    You are afflicted with sunallergy.
    Eochaid hacks at your left arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Your left arm trembles slightly under the blow.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    The weapon sends a shockwave into your right arm, breaking it.
    You are afflicted with crippled right arm.
    You begin sweating heavily, your skin heating to unnatural temperatures.
    You are afflicted with butisol.
    Eochaid sends the cold of the grave to freeze you.
    You have lost the caloric salve defence.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your left arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    Your lungs tighten and it becomes hard to breathe.
    You are afflicted with asthma.
    Eochaid hacks at your left arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Painful bruises are forming on your left arm.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    The teeth along the weapon edge cut painfully into your flesh, causing considerable bleeding.
    A faintness takes you as your stomach begins to grumble ceaselessly.
    You are afflicted with slow herbs.
    Eochaid sends the cold of the grave to freeze you.
    You are afflicted with shivering.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your right arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    A sense of extreme nausea washes over you.
    You are afflicted with nausea.
    Eochaid hacks at your right arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Your right arm trembles slightly under the blow.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    You begin sweating heavily, your skin heating to unnatural temperatures.
    You are afflicted with butisol.
    Eochaid sends the cold of the grave to freeze you.
    You are afflicted with shivering.
    You have not regained the ability to purge your body of toxins.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your right arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    Your lungs tighten and it becomes hard to breathe.
    You are afflicted with asthma.
    Eochaid hacks at your right arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Painful bruises are forming on your right arm.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    The teeth along the weapon edge cut painfully into your flesh, causing considerable bleeding.
    Terror takes hold, as a numb sensation overcomes your body.
    You are afflicted with numbness.
    Eochaid sends the cold of the grave to freeze you.
    You are afflicted with shivering.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your left arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    A sense of extreme nausea washes over you.
    You are afflicted with nausea.
    Eochaid hacks at your left arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    You are afflicted with damaged left arm.
    You are afflicted with crippled left arm.
    You cease to wield a gleaming mirror-polished longsword.
    Your left arm is greatly damaged from the beating.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    The weapon sends a shockwave into your right leg, breaking it.
    You are afflicted with crippled right leg.
    A faintness takes you as your stomach begins to grumble ceaselessly.
    You are afflicted with slow herbs.
    Eochaid sends the cold of the grave to freeze you.
    You are afflicted with shivering.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your right arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    Your lungs tighten and it becomes hard to breathe.
    You are afflicted with asthma.
    Eochaid hacks at your right arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    You are afflicted with damaged right arm.
    You are afflicted with crippled right arm.
    Your right arm is greatly damaged from the beating.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    The teeth along the weapon edge cut painfully into your flesh, causing considerable bleeding.
    You begin sweating heavily, your skin heating to unnatural temperatures.
    You are afflicted with butisol.
    Eochaid sends the cold of the grave to freeze you.
    You are afflicted with frozen.
    You are again able to clot your wounds properly.
    You exert superior mental control and will your wounds to clot before your eyes.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your torso viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    As the weapon strikes you, you feel your health start to slip away as it hungrily feeds from you.
    Damage Taken: 56 cold (raw damage: 75)
    An attack on your immune system causes your body to feel weak.
    You are afflicted with hemotoxin.
    Eochaid hacks at your torso viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 35 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    A faintness takes you as your stomach begins to grumble ceaselessly.

    Eochaid barks at a ravenous hound, ordering it to attack you.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid skillfully cleanses a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid focuses her demonic powers upon a gleaming scimitar.
    Eochaid hacks at your left arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Damage Taken: 41 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    A strange smelling substance begins to leak from your pores.
    You are afflicted with slickness.
    Eochaid hacks at your left arm viciously with a gleaming scimitar.
    Your left arm trembles slightly under the blow.
    Damage Taken: 41 cutting, physical (raw damage: 71)
    The weapon sends a shockwave into your left leg, breaking it.
    You are afflicted with crippled left leg.
    The teeth along the weapon edge cut painfully into your flesh, causing considerable bleeding.
    Terror takes hold, as a numb sensation overcomes your body.
    You are afflicted with numbness.

    That's 12 combos, dealing the following afflictions: 

    Combo 1: Break, Asthma
    Combo 2: Asthma, Numbness
    Combo 3: Asthma, Butisol, Chill 7
    Combo 4: Numbness, Asthma, Chill, Tendoncut Head 11
    Combo 5: Sunallergy, Arm Break, Butisol, Chill 15
    Combo 6: Asthma, Slow herbs, Shivering 18
    Combo 7: Nausea, Butisol, Shivering 21
    Combo 8: Asthma, Numbness, Shivering 24
    Combo 9: Nausea, Crippled Arm, Break Leg, Slow herbs, Chill 29
    Combo 10: Asthma, Crippled Arm, Butisol, Frozen. 33
    Combo 11: Hemotoxin 34
    Combo 12: Slickness, Break Leg, Numbness 37

    12 combos - 37 Afflictions.

    This shows that chill is being used 8 combos out of 12, not the previously claimed 1-in-3. At 37 total afflictions, these 12 combos work out at 3.08 afflictions per combo.

    I'm only including "crippled" limbs as 1, though they also apply a break. This is with 2.7s balance per combo, no use of longs/shred. This also includes 70-100 damage most combos.

    This is well beyond what a Runeguard is capable of - Both in terms of damage and afflictions - And this isn't including the added effects from gravehands or deathaura, though they would only bump the affliction rate up slightly. Rate would jump to about 3.5 affs/combo if shred was used, overall, and torso tendoncut would also notably increase the aff rate.

    So, how is my maths wrong here? What am I missing? Note that a pure aff class - Rene, level 3 dirk - goes between about 1aps and 1.66aps, whilst DK is sitting solidly and comfortably at 1.2-1.4aps. Yes, raw aff rate is iffy to compare, but in this instance it's well understood that a level 3 dirk is far, far too good at affliction, yet DK with a comparable aff rate, decent per combo damage, bleed and all the team utility of a knight is fine? It's not. Not even slightly.

    EDIT: Also worth mentioning that the balance point for dirk speed is considered somewhere between level 1 and 2 dirk speed, meaning a normal rene should be hitting an APS of about 0.9 to 1.5. Once the speed arti changes happen, the problem will become even more pronounced.
  • ArachArach Member Posts: 29
    edited July 2019
    @Galt Why not just go ahead and show us the WHOLE log and not just what Eochaid is doing to you. I mean, you keep telling us how DK is SO strong... just because Eochaid beats you quite often when you fight her. Because from what I can tell, you are only showing the stuff that will help your case... not show us that you might possibly be wrong and actually are just that bad.

    Edit: before someone tries to call me out. I know I am bad, I will be the first to admit it. Thanks for wasting our time by stating such things.
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 297 ✭✭✭
    The first log posted didn't involve me. It was Pellerin v Eochaid, from her POV.

    Some more numbers: Shaman clocks in at around 1.15 affs/second, Rene averages around 1.3 with a level 3 dirk, but will average slightly less than Shaman if the predicted speed arti changes happen.

    DK is matching this affliction rate, whilst doing damage, being tankier, bringing more utility to teams, etc. Rather than simply pointing at me and flinging vaguely coherent insults and insinuations that I am somehow lying, making numbers do impossible things or otherwise being unreasonable, why not try to address my actual arguments? 

    Major note is that DK doesn't lose out much if you screw up by missing tendoncuts (Eochaid missed 2/3 on average) or hitting rebounding, whereas both Shaman and Renegade will lose most of their progress if they make such a mistake. 

    The TL;DR of this? DK can't reasonably stay as is. It needs to lose something, and the most obvious thing to nerf is the affliction rate. If the other knights are matching this affliction rate and are similarly problematic, then they need a look, too - However, what logs we have seen for RG suggest it's a decent bit slower in terms of APS. Templar might be matching DK in short bursts, but from what I gather, whilst chill has a negligible essence cost, Templar has a higher combo skill cost. If I had to throw out a guess, I'd say that the APS of Templar is closer to RG than to DK, with more restrictions on it in terms of target health having to be at a certain %, etc. 

    This stems back to enhancements, like I said - It's subtle, but the small differences in enhancements (Lower avg cooldown, more of them, negating to cut it further, lesser requirements) are making DK too strong. 
  • ArachArach Member Posts: 29
    See, the reason why I find this to be such an amusing thing for you to do, is because you are trying to compare different professions that do different things. Sure, generally speaking Knights are all the same. With that said, they don't all fight the same. Not at all. I'm sorry that you think the APS is kind of insane compared to other professions. If you -really- look at it she might be doing, as you put it mind you, 3.08 APS. From what I can tell, yeah she is... but how many of those afflictions are cured via herb, focus, salve, smoking, or purge? (admittedly, some of those fall under more than one category). You are looking at the afflictions from very broad perspective. When in retrospect, it's no where near as strong as you like to say it is. Only reason it appears that way is because she abuses several cure types... not just one. 

    If anything, the only issue that DK/RG/Templar have in PK is the fact that Hack (which I will go ahead and state now) a scimitar only attack, can't be parried. Make it hit parry, and I would be willing to bet that a lot of people will see a difference in fighting Knight classes.

    Other than that, all I ever see when you start talking about different professions is that they are over powered because you can't beat the person playing them.
    Jalaras
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 698 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    You were told the essence costs. It's not a shocker that she used 8 when she can do 10.

    You also begrudingly sort of kinda admitted that you can't compare aps directly on split cures! Cool.

    There's nothing Eochaid or any DK is doing that couldn't be done *better* by an RG. Instead of those chills barely scratching for 20s, you'd get: net -1 health sip, a versatile cure block, a toadstool block, the ability to choose between any rune effect, *actual* prone once you get to the breaks, rebounding block, shield block + damage, and hey another free 10% unblockable max hp. DK does have decent enhancements, but it's also not like RG's are garbage - dryblood for a 3-4 nightshade aff dump every 10s, ablaze/damage about every other combo, lightning damage scaling to affs  (4+ is absolutely doable) every other combo, and 50% armor bypass with 40% uptime while under 50% hp on target. All that puts RG above in herb aps, which makes it easier to stick butisol *and* haemophilia *and* asthma, the critical affs in the breaking, longsword, and locking routes.

    'Tankier' becomes questionable when chill drain means putrefaction and deathaura and you have to keep above ~8% for vigour. Even then, Gebu/gebo x2 + berkana and jera VS +2 con (if in proper form) and putre isn't some huge gap like Pell and Jules don't get downgraded in prio cause their tank v threat ratio is off.

    tl;dr scimitars are very powerful, especially against leather limbs, and even then the salve stack itself is mostly just frustrating if they use it to stall instead of tendoncut effects or aff dumping, which don't give a comparative advantage to DK with its higher salve pressure when you look at going for atonement or the easy stack to dsb route for RG.

    E: Cause I like to be fair, if you *do* get frozen stuck and tendoncut torso, confusion + a shivering disruption is painful. But still, it's a point where you need to defend, bail, or hinder against any knight.
    MathiausJalaras
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 293 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    Affs per second doesn't mean ****, when half the time they're useless affs that get cured immediately, and don't actually really contribute to the ability to kill someone.

    Compare it to something like Zerker who does 3 affs per bal, and every single one of their affs directly contribute to their kill.
    Or Shaman where 90% of their affs contribute to ignite.
    Or Bard, where you're stacking mentals to get that juicy burst damage.
    Or Hunter for brainmelts.
    Or...Any class, really, except maybe Defiler/Druid. If those classes stack affs on you, you're probably bad. I'd include Pred there, too, but let's be honest nobody considers Predator in literally any discussion anymore, except when talking about mythological creatures.

    But no. No, you keep acting like chill and an occasional mending break is amazing. Even though it becoming a burden, is 99% the fault of bad curing/defending.
    Arach
  • NarujNaruj Member, Beta Testers Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    Going to be honest.

    The problem isn't Deathknight. The problem is butisol. Nothing about the class would be out of bounds if mercury and butisol weren't on the same cure.
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 698 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    Tweaking WM hack scimitar is a far better step since you get similar results without the wider impact, and both would probably be too much.


    (Zerk can sometimes do 4 or 5 affs per combo!)
  • NarujNaruj Member, Beta Testers Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    Butisol is a problem that goes far beyond Deathknight. We've been talking about unpairing slow salves from asthma for like three years.

    Fixing the kelp stack would make Deathknight perfect, and would actually make the atonement style kill proposal for Vivisect really interesting because you could suddenly choose between 4s salve balance and curing asthma.
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 698 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    I can't really see which herb you would put it on that wouldn't make things worse, but I wouldn't be opposed to  removing restoration from the butisol effect, basically making butisol into 'Everything's a resto!'. When you're trading off herb aps for salve aps, butisol has enough impact to make mending/epidermals worth it. It's only when you add in the resto breaks which come at the same time that it gets silly, imo.

    Rangazon and Pred might need some buffs as a result, but they did already anyway.

    E: And ngl it's frustrating that this is still being framed in terms of DK being problematic when it's a knight issue.
  • NarujNaruj Member, Beta Testers Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    Gjarrus said:
    I can't really see which herb you would put it on that wouldn't make things worse, but I wouldn't be opposed to  removing restoration from the butisol effect, basically making butisol into 'Everything's a resto!'. When you're trading off herb aps for salve aps, butisol has enough impact to make mending/epidermals worth it. It's only when you add in the resto breaks which come at the same time that it gets silly, imo.
    Wormwood is the working idea, though Septus suggested lovage and that is interesting too. The former would make it harder to stack and easier to cure, while the latter would keep it tied to the kelp stack but cure instantly once asthma did.

    Making it not include restoration and taking away the third party messages might also be enough. Fix the salve stack overall though and you wouldn't have to do much more to Deathknight than fix a few bugs.
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 149 ✭✭
    Butisol on a different plant cure would be fine.
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    Resurrecting this thread, as two more Defiler nerfs went into effect today. Devastate and Bellow damage were further reduced. 

    Eochaid and I provided feedback, Eo provided a fight log, I’ve discussed Defiler extensively in the Discord channel. It’s common knowledge that after the initial round of nerfs, Defiler was in a sorry state. 

    I cannot seem to understand why, after all this, Defiler was given two more nerfs. It’s already a low tier class that only two people play (one for RP reasons, and me to be unique). It already struggled in combat. Why would we drive a limping class further into the ground?

    This makes no sense. Please, if someone can provide some clarity or help me understand these decisions, I’d be grateful.

    @Dec
    @Eoghan
  • XzerizenabelXzerizenabel Member Posts: 9
    Hello! Does anyone know if the new artifact armor change covers the head slot as well?
  • EoghanEoghan Member, Immortal Posts: 1,055 mod
    Yes, for the purposes of armor, head is a limb.
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