Do they do things that are old-time and probably annoying as balls? Yes.
Is that the history Stavenn was founded on? Yes. Do I think it's the best thing for Stavenn and the game? Unsure, leaning towards no.
It's rough around the ages and sort of exploitative*, but at least it's something. Considering the lack of support, guidance, story-line, they're sticking to their roots and actually doing something. So regardless of my feelings on it, at least they're trying to do something. Basically, they're one up on you, Kinsarmarian pride and all.
Everything AM has done of note falls under this asterisk. Player driven RP is always annoying to someone and always ends in an endurance slugfest.
Oh, the raiding and other pk-related nonsense is for our PK-hungry mongrels. (<3 you guys)
I was referring to our newly revamped couture, I mean culture, our deepening RP decision trees, our OOC banter and our general vim and vigour for all things bathed in blood and things.
Stavenn is truly becoming a one-stop hub for all kinds of players from all walks of life, where everyone gets to party and have fun, no matter their preferences.
Edit: Also, consider this. If you hate our guts, we're probably doing our job description rightly. Think about it from our perspective: how much harder is it to have to persuade new players to stay, given that our RP is essentially 'We're douchebags.'
It is extremely monumental what we have to achieve in Stavenn, that which Magick easily takes for granted: the 'kind' of 'new' players that we retain are those who feel the need to prove something, that they are 'good' at PvP. That is fine, but then to even match the player-attraction of both AM and Magick, we need to not only create an environment for PvP-wannabes (like me) and hardcore RPers to coexist, but to respect and value each other. Without this, our RPers just leave. You face no such problem because your RP environment doesn't innately scream 'Be awesome aka strong or be downtrodden.' There is much more believable room for negotiation, interpretation and mediation.
Edit: Also, consider this. If you hate our guts, we're probably doing our job description rightly.
Way to bastardize the unofficial Bellatores motto of, "if they aren't complaining about you, you are doing it wrong"
My only thought on lumberjacking (which I don't have issues with, if you take it for the griefing tool it is) is that it is a one-way, no-risk mechanic - sure magickers can temporarily chase lumberjackers off, but options to "hit back" in some similar fashion, also known as "faux harm", are pretty limited. Maybe the comm (and sect) changes will add additional quasi-revenge conflict mechanisms.
“We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
Edit: Also, consider this. If you hate our guts, we're probably doing our job description rightly.
Way to bastardize the unofficial Bellatores motto of, "if they aren't complaining about you, you are doing it wrong"
My only thought on lumberjacking (which I don't have issues with, if you take it for the griefing tool it is) is that it is a one-way, no-risk mechanic - sure magickers can temporarily chase lumberjackers off, but options to "hit back" in some similar fashion, also known as "faux harm", are pretty limited. Maybe the comm (and sect) changes will add additional quasi-revenge conflict mechanisms.
Can't you ... (sorry Ahkan)... chop down Khandavan trees?
They tried chopping down Khandavan trees, but it generates pk that is continued outside the actual event itself (aka, not shard protected). People didn't like that so they quit (or they filed like a million issues). Demonic isn't doing anything that hasn't been done before at this point. It's not really any different than "99 diamonds of pk on the wall." It's no different than the magick anti-demon-forest, their own raids, their own blockades. Cassius is guilty of everything he's complaining about, but the difference is that he was super-hero level cool when he was doing it.
Yes. Demonic is likely crossing the line of 'good antagonist rp' and 'asshat'. They've done it every time they've played out of this playbook (as has everyone). That's the problem with player driven rp in Imperian. It has to get to the level of asshat for it to matter to the victim. Otherwise, you can just finger in your ears and Wren/Kira/Ysaviel your way out the interaction. Without a 'victory' condition you enter this retarded stalemate of "I am winning" vs "head in the sand." There's no resolution there so it just drags on and on and on.
The biggest problem with this inter-city conflict is that it basically relies on the aggressors being willing to stop beating on the losing organization when that organization is at the point where all the players are miserable and people are quitting the game.
This can work out decently(even if it is unsatisfying) if all the aggressors are willing to back off when it's clear that they've won and enjoy simply knowing that they have won.
However, the reality of it is that you end up with aggressor teams like Ashel/Khizan/Ihsan who are absolutely not willing to do that and who consider "All of Khandava quits playing because their city has become a mid-level bashing area for Stavennites" a valid victory condition because they will be damned if they let Ysaviel turtle her way into a victory.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Ysaviel is an ancient player with a fine bardic tradition of declaring wins when clear victors get bored of roosting in their organization of choice and finally go home.
Stavenn claiming it can't keep roleplayers because it's not easy to RP there is laughable. Stavenn is possibly one of the most interesting places to RP within all of Imperian. There are a billion story hooks. The problem is that it's such a heavily PK oriented culture that people who don't have an inclination towards PK can end up feeling isolated. Can. Not always. Stavenn goes through cycles of awesome and absence with regards to RP and liveliness generally.
If you want to create interesting conflict that doesn't just come across as straight trolling, the other side has to have a legitimate chance to compete.
By all means, grind them into the dirt if you don't care, but if you want some enjoyable back and forth, consider what the other team can bring to the playing field. It sure doesn't seem to me that Kinsarmar or Celidon can field the same number and quality of fighters that Stavenn can. So basically all you end up doing is making life miserable for the few who can and feel obligated to try to push back when overwhelming force is applied.
Elsewise, once you've sufficiently twisted that boot heel into the soil, what Khizan said. There needs to be a win condition, and the people that failed need to accept it and act like they did, in fact, lose. Everyone can't be a winner all the time.
Khizan being the voice of reason is kind of frightening to me.
Fighters all tend to gravitate towards whatever org seems to have the best PK going on. So when Stavenn is kickin' rear, they get most of the fighters. Which is sort of self-defeating, because then who do you fight?
I am pretty sure if he could figure out the logistics, Septus would monitor the current count for each side as the battle rages and constantly switch his allegiance to ensure even odds until the end (where he would then 1x1 and proclaim himself the winner).
“We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
Not to play the pedant, but it's an M1A2 Abrams, colloquially the M1.
Also, I took the benefit of counting up our kdr there... the only time they ever passed us was the very last kill. That last word was in fact the kill that made it go 46 (AM kills) to 45 (Demonic kills). About halfway through that deathsight log, we had 35 and they had 13.
Comments
Do I think it's the best thing for Stavenn and the game? Unsure, leaning towards no.
Edit: Also, consider this. If you hate our guts, we're probably doing our job description rightly. Think about it from our perspective: how much harder is it to have to persuade new players to stay, given that our RP is essentially 'We're douchebags.'
It is extremely monumental what we have to achieve in Stavenn, that which Magick easily takes for granted: the 'kind' of 'new' players that we retain are those who feel the need to prove something, that they are 'good' at PvP. That is fine, but then to even match the player-attraction of both AM and Magick, we need to not only create an environment for PvP-wannabes (like me) and hardcore RPers to coexist, but to respect and value each other. Without this, our RPers just leave. You face no such problem because your RP environment doesn't innately scream 'Be awesome aka strong or be downtrodden.' There is much more believable room for negotiation, interpretation and mediation.
My only thought on lumberjacking (which I don't have issues with, if you take it for the griefing tool it is) is that it is a one-way, no-risk mechanic - sure magickers can temporarily chase lumberjackers off, but options to "hit back" in some similar fashion, also known as "faux harm", are pretty limited. Maybe the comm (and sect) changes will add additional quasi-revenge conflict mechanisms.
The biggest problem with this inter-city conflict is that it basically relies on the aggressors being willing to stop beating on the losing organization when that organization is at the point where all the players are miserable and people are quitting the game.
This can work out decently(even if it is unsatisfying) if all the aggressors are willing to back off when it's clear that they've won and enjoy simply knowing that they have won.
However, the reality of it is that you end up with aggressor teams like Ashel/Khizan/Ihsan who are absolutely not willing to do that and who consider "All of Khandava quits playing because their city has become a mid-level bashing area for Stavennites" a valid victory condition because they will be damned if they let Ysaviel turtle her way into a victory.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
who is Ysaviel?
Stavenn claiming it can't keep roleplayers because it's not easy to RP there is laughable. Stavenn is possibly one of the most interesting places to RP within all of Imperian. There are a billion story hooks. The problem is that it's such a heavily PK oriented culture that people who don't have an inclination towards PK can end up feeling isolated. Can. Not always. Stavenn goes through cycles of awesome and absence with regards to RP and liveliness generally.
If you want to create interesting conflict that doesn't just come across as straight trolling, the other side has to have a legitimate chance to compete.
By all means, grind them into the dirt if you don't care, but if you want some enjoyable back and forth, consider what the other team can bring to the playing field. It sure doesn't seem to me that Kinsarmar or Celidon can field the same number and quality of fighters that Stavenn can. So basically all you end up doing is making life miserable for the few who can and feel obligated to try to push back when overwhelming force is applied.
Elsewise, once you've sufficiently twisted that boot heel into the soil, what Khizan said. There needs to be a win condition, and the people that failed need to accept it and act like they did, in fact, lose. Everyone can't be a winner all the time.
Khizan being the voice of reason is kind of frightening to me.
Fighters all tend to gravitate towards whatever org seems to have the best PK going on. So when Stavenn is kickin' rear, they get most of the fighters. Which is sort of self-defeating, because then who do you fight?
Also, I took the benefit of counting up our kdr there... the only time they ever passed us was the very last kill. That last word was in fact the kill that made it go 46 (AM kills) to 45 (Demonic kills). About halfway through that deathsight log, we had 35 and they had 13.
MVP for AM - A quest door.