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The Issues System

AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
I don't think the issues system is really serving its purpose as well as it should. There's been a serious drop off in consistency, efficiency, expedience, and overall quality of issue handling as of late. The current system is also prone to being utilized poorly which is a waste of everyone's time. There has also been a recurring theme of using issues to harass other players. To start, I want to clarify that I do not want Achaea's derp rule system. I'm going to quickly highlight some huge problems that I've heard from players.

#1. Issues take too long to handle.
No one expects them to be handled in 24 hours. We only expect that they be handled in the same week the transgression occurred. As a person replying to the issues, I don't want to be punished for something that happened 14 days ago that everyone has forgotten about. As an issuer, I don't want to feel that my complaint is so trivial that someone can't be bothered to devote 30m-60m of their time to resolve my complaint. You really need to step up your game and deal with these in a timely manner, let's say 3-4 days, TOPS.

#2. Issue resolution needs to be sent to the issuer/issuee.
Stealth deletions are terrible customer service. This primarily deals with the issuer insofar as to allow them to hear the details of your investigation and why or why not their issue was not enforced. This is a good time to reply with a solid definition of harassment and why the issue does not conform to the definition of the word. I think this would go a long way to resolve the frivolous issuing epidemic. "Your issue against Lionas was dismissed because Lionas was able to demonstrate that on September 8th, 2012 that you improperly used an oxford comma when calling him a scruffy looking nerf herder."

#3. The volume of issues is probably too much to dump on one person.
There's a lot of issues filed, especially if people are bored and forcing the issue of pk. Once the poo flinging starts, you start seeing harassment, no-pk, potty-mouth, bug-abuse issues rolling in. That's too much for on person to deal with. It's almost impossible to keep a level ahead when you're looking at 18 issues with about 1hr of research per issue. Maybe your work load would be reduced if you found a way to manage the issues system better. A side benefit is that you'd eliminate the obvious personal bias that exists.

#4. As it is now, the issues system is too 'accessible' and favors the emotional response.
It's too easy to fire and forget an issue in the heat of battle butthurt. Ahkan killed me. Issue Ahkan omfgbbq, I haven't pk'd in 18 years and Ahkan just handed me my **** despite my best efforts to the contrary. Ahkan's constant attacks, totalling 18, are harassment that has emotional stability. Plz fix. This issue wastes everyone's time. It wastes my time because I don't want to get dinged for ignore it. It wastes the time of whoever handles this issue because they have to verify that it's been 18 years since your last pk. It's just dumb. There has to be a better way!

And I think I have it. I don't want to reduce the issues or impose any sort of penalty on the issue filers. I would rather Jesse, Svorai, and Jeremy's eyes bleed from poorly written complaints than one issue sneak by that was not resolved. This is not my intent. What I want to do is make the process take a little bit more time, involve some logical decision making, and hopefully allow the administration to categorize which violation it is and hopefully allow a team effort be applied to reduce workload, increase resolution time and frequency, and hopefully give the impression that someone does actually care. Tbh, Jesse's handling of issues was always pretty straight forward and both sides knew what was up. I miss that guy.

Here's my idea. I stole it from every phone robot ever.

Step 1: The command is reworked to initiate a series of prompts in the editor. ISSUE AHKAN
-The editor is important because it means I have to stop doing everything I am doing to address this issue. I can't file it on the fly between pks.

Step 2: Choose the category of the customer service issue you'd like to have addressed.
PK, Harassment, Profanity, whatever other categories.

Step 3: Here is your first pass to categorize something. "Have you sought an in character resolution for this problem." If yes, go to 3. If no go to 4.
Step 3b: Explain what IC resolution you pursued.
This is where you'd reply, I snubbed him. I asked him why he killed me. I informed my guild. I talked to a soothe sayer. I asked him on skype. Whatever.

Step 4: This is where you'd actually type your issue here.
Ahkan killed me.

Step 5. Before being filed, the system should prompt you with a brief summation of what the issue should conform to as a brief reminder.

Step 6. Submission

Step 7. Response.

Step 8. Resolution. This is where I think we need to steal from plogs or something. Or have a person only issues newspost so that both players can see. I'm not sure if they should decay or not. I can see both the benefits and drawbacks to this. But the output would be pretty informative and useful for everyone involved

Issue 11327.
Re Ahkan, by Lionas.
Category: PK.
Problem: Ahkan killed me.
Reply: Lionas tells you, "Youre a scruffy looking nerf herder!"
Resolution. Your issue against Ahkan was dismissed because Ahkan was able to demonstrate that on September 8th, 2012 that you improperly used an oxford comma when calling him a scruffy looking nerf herder."

I think this longer system reduces the knee-jerk emotional response issue that everyone loathes. I also feel that the ability to categorize these can really go a long way to help split the workload. Harassment issues should be handled by a senior administrator. But a lot of the petty pk issues and the potty mouth issues could be investigated by anyone capable of perusing logs underneath an admin shell like Lachesis. This way you can monitor who handles what, so that someone can't use customer information to troll and grief people through skype/facebook. You can probably send 30-60% of the issues to a group and have them cull out frivolous issues and really streamline the process. Mind you, this is just a rough idea, but I think it has potential. You can do with it what you will.


  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2014

    Changes I would like to see:

    1. I would like for there to be a window of time after dying where you cannot issue. Ten minutes, say. If it's legitimately issueworthy right after you die at time t, it will still be issueworthy at time t+10. If it's not a legitimate issue and they're just reflexively rage-issuing after a death, the best case scenario is that the time window will let them cool off and they'll decide not to issue. Failing that, the window will hopefully give them the time to compose a legible issue as opposed to a 'he kill me for no reeson i just in kahndava forest and he say get out but he do not own forest so i do not leave and then he kill me" type of babble-issue. Failing that, you might get 10 minutes worth of furious babble-issue, which will at least have the plus side of being hilarious?

      Honestly, anything which is worthy of an issue is probably something where you should be taking 10 minutes or so to ensure that you're presenting your case correctly. Type it up in notepad, wait a bit, read it over, send it if you still think it needs sent.

    2. I would like to see PvP issues automatically dismissed if there's no attempt at IC resolution. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to the trash. If somebody kills you and you issue without even asking them why, you lose the issue automatically. I've had too many issues with a situation that was something like "Somebody walked into a shardfall area. I kill them. They hit Dis 30 seconds later. Issue is filed 5 seconds after that." While the "they walked into a shardfall area" response is boilerplate stuff, I'd like a rule like this to discourage snap issues without going through the motions.

    3. Punishment for abuse of the issue system. I don't mean punishment for unsuccessful issues; people shouldn't be afraid to file issues because they'll get punished if the issue fails. I'm talking about cases of blatant issue abuse, the people who issue so much that every kill against them is followed by half the ring saying "Issue incoming!"

      What I'd like for this is a sort of points system. You'd have a list of infractions that will earn you points, and only those things would earn you points. Once you hit a certain level of points, you get a punishment based on that level of points and you get that same punishment again for every violation of the rules after that point level. Let's say... the levels are at 20 points and each rule broken is 4 points. On the first of the month, you lose 10 points. Somebody would have to break the rules 5 times to hit a punishment. Your average player or newbie will never be even come close to being punished, no matter what kind of issue they file; it is only the serial issuers who will have to be concerned about potential punishments. 

      The idea here is that you only make rules for things that you specifically want to deter people from doing. Off the top of my head, one rule might be "Issuing for PvP without an attempt at IC resolution".  With the threat of a potential punishment for not doing it, they would(hopefully) be more likely to do things like "ask why they were killed" before they issue over the death. This is a hugely iffy thing, though, but I think a system like this would help encourage people to think before they issue. 

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2014
    A point system = Too much management, and less arbitrary power for admin.

    Let it be self-regulated: give people five issues per month. They can decide what a genuine issue is worth to them. If you're running up more than five issues a month, (a) one issue should be sufficiently strong in itself to resolve your problem, (b) maybe you should sit down and take a long hard look at your own behaviour.

    Petty people will still file petty issues. They'll just have to decide which pettier issues they would rather not file.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2014
    Honestly, I think a lot could be accomplished by only doing a few things.

    - No issuing ten minutes after death. There is virtually no reason outside of endless griefing where you couldn't take the ten minutes to write out a coherent issue, and in the case of constant deaths, I'm sure an admin would notice and step in regardless.

    - If an issue is superfluous, close it quickly, provide a message to both parties, and warn the filer that conflicts need to be attempted to be resolved IC first.

    - Repeat offenders need a limit on the issues that can be filed - if you have to file more than one a month, you're doing something very wrong. I don't understand why issuing isn't treated more like a privilege; if you need actual customer support that isn't "he killed me after I said something incredibly asinine but I'm a noncom!", you still have other avenues to pursue it.

    - Alternatively: remove or limit the ability to issue OTHERS. If you really need something resolved and you've proven you can't responsibly determine when an issue is necessary, you can issue yourself. At least the other party won't have to reply to the seventh issue you've filed this week over nothing.

    - Be consistent in rulings, be able to set and follow established precedents. If there's a point of confusion, consider keeping a help file (this doesn't need to be visible to the players, if you don't want) that contains an organized list of precedents and the issue attached to that precendent, archived for consultation. No more inconsistencies! New person hopping into an admin shell? You already have a list of established rulings to make it easier. I have no idea how the gods in Imperian function, but I imagine that these suggestions wouldn't be completely out of place.

    I don't think the system is 'broken' and I don't think a complex point system is necessary, or any sort of regulation. The current setup would work absolutely fine if repeat offenders were given more than a stern warning when they offended. It's a small game, we know who these people are. Nobody will be surprised and nobody will come to their defense if they lose these privileges, because it's frankly amazing they've maintained them this long.

    EDIT: Removed some unproductive ideas.

  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wysrias said:
    Nobody will be surprised and nobody will come to their defense if they lose these privileges
    You may be unpleasantly surprised.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭✭
    The ten minute window seems like it would inhibit resolving the issue ingame before the issue is even filed.
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2014

    Mathiaus said:
    The ten minute window seems like it would inhibit resolving the issue ingame before the issue is even filed.
    Not entirely sure what you mean. You could solve whatever the problem you were going to file over in that time, easily, or at least make the attempt. It would certainly prevent knee-jerk issues while in Dis, which is the goal.

    EDIT: Oh, did you read my comment as "you only GET 10 minutes to issue after you die"? I could see the confusion then. What I mean is, you can't file an issue for ten minutes after you died. This gives you some time to get back to your city, cool down, talk to your allies and figure out how to word the issue (if the issue is even necessary - it probably isn't).

  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭✭
    @Wysrias‌ ah, yeah, had read it wrong then. My bad.
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    I was issued by Ahkan once, for being accomplice to a grief crew that was convinced he was holding the literal key to victory during the Khandavan Tree event and using the Imperian version of waterboarding (vodun shake) to get it from him. Glad to see the man has learned put on some big boys pants and sac up!
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It was the vodun resurrect/kill spam that got the issue!
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