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Thinking about Summoner

IniarIniar Australia
edited September 2013 in Fighting and Combat
First of all, thank you @Garryn for a really challenging class. Thank you too to the beta testers, you know who you are.

I'm posting this because some people have mentioned that they don't know where to start with summoner offense (and some have quit class)

Thinking about a summoner offense can be fairly complicated;
Fo a start, you have three basic forms of attacks;
(1) Spell
(2) Card
(3) Demon

Additionally, you may have access to;
(4) Instant spell
(5) Infused card

This gives us ~18 possible combinations of attacks, most of which are accessible only at certain thresholds.
Add in a maximum of 3 options per Spell and this blows out quite spectacularly.

The two straightest approaches are;
(a) taint guided queue
(b) queue guided taint use

In your traditional (b) (i.e toxin) queue, you simply 'chose' the next affliction on your queue that wasn't on your opponent, the assumption being higher ranked toxins were
(1) blocking cures
(2) blocking aggression
and as you progressed,
(3) provide a buffer to higher toxins
(correct me if I'm wrong)

In a summoner enlighten queue, you need to work backwards;
Start by looking at the conditions of enlighten
(a) whisperingmadness
(b) conditional number of required afflictions

So the very top of your queue/offence logic (well, you) needs to work out (as an example)
i) given (the target has) whisperingmadness, 
   a) given the target's health, (or guess at 100% maxhp)
       i) do they have sufficient (eligible) afflictions?
            a) yes -> enlighten
            b) no -> how many (eligible) afflictions more do I need? x number.
                  i) given sufficient (>70%) taint, can a double affliction instant spell + demon meet that number?
                       a) yes -> enlighten with the chosen combination spell & demon
                       b) no -> if the double affliction instant spell sufficient to meet this number?
                                       i) yes -> enlighten
                                       ii) no -> is there a demon I can unleash to meet this requirement? if yes, enlighten, if no, -> terminate this line of enquiry
ii) given -not- whisperingmadness,
-> (figure out what cures whisperingmadness: focus and smoke)
   a) can I give whisperingmadness without it being cured instantly? i.e.
       i) does the target have both (a) asthma? (b) impatience?
       ii) if yes, what combination can I cast with the most number of afflictions along with whisperingmadness? -> cast it
      iii) if no, and the missing affliction is impatience, is the target off focus balance? if yes, how long away is that balance?
               a) > your ping +- safety margin -> cast most potent combination of afflictions with whisperingmadness
               b) < your ping +- safety margin, do I have sufficient (>60%) taint to deliver impatience (with an instant spell)?
      iv) if no, and the missing affliction is asthma, do I have sufficient (>70%) taint to deliver asthma (with an instant spell)? -> if yes, cast it, if no -> terminate this line of enquiry
iii) now, given unable to deliver whisperingmadness reliably, you can start the appropriate toxin queue with the similar sort of logic

the basic pattern is, I need aff(A), which skill gives it? Given my resources (taint), can I deliver aff(A) with something else? Are there any benefits to using a certain affliction with aff(A)? Are there any benefits to using a certain demon with aff(A)?

I know there're simpler ways but if you're having trouble thinking about it, lay down each step you want to achieve first, then figure out the best way to do it, then the auxiliary things.

Kindly share if you have any insights/thoughts on how you write your offense.

re:Lionas's post below -> agreed, it's just a starting point for thinking. (insert druid joke)
wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure

Comments

  • At work, can't post in detail, by this only considers one kill method. It is also possible to push for the demon unleash channeled instant, or push a damage strategy.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • edited September 2013
    Under the umbrella of this topic, would like to hear thoughts on shared taint pool. Wasn't something that is easily vetted in a beta, and turns out it's a bit of a management problem in team situations with multiple summoners. While I am sure better coordination would equate to better opportunities to exploit a shared pool (on top of the need to coordinate unleashings, etc), it does take some of the individual planning/strategy out of your hands (like when Kryss jacks it all) and I'd be for individual pools ala Kai, all things considered.
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
  • IniarIniar Australia
    Eldreth said:
    Under the umbrella of this topic, would like I hear thoughts on shared taint pool. Wasn't something that is easily vetted in a beta, and turns out it's a bit of a management problem in team situations with multiple summoners. While I am sure better coordination would equate to better opportunities to exploit a shared pool (on top of the need to coordinate unleashings, etc) I'd be for individual pools ala Kai all things considered.
    I like that it's shared, (because there's no I in team! :P) but I haven't taken the Ferrari out for a spin yet, so I can't tell :)
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • edited September 2013
    My thoughts on the final product of Summoner are sort of mixed: when I really pushed (alongside several other testers), in beta, for the class to rip itself away from the attunement system, I had greater results in mind. Namely, I wanted to see Demonic get something of an aggressive caster damage class. What I seem to be seeing most Summoners lean on is some kind of awkward cycle of afflictions hinging on an Enlighten. Do all of you current Summoners who did not get in to the beta just feel like the damage route is not worth it?
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • edited September 2013

    I always defer to Iluv and Kryss when it comes to toiling away on overly complex affliction delta schemes. I am the dude with the big stick who likes to figure out the best way to kill people with it, especially since fancy combos do you little good when AM's simple damage machine (with on-demand CC) can kill you in 4-5 seconds (Iluv has been playing the role of Mena in the latest production of Shardfall: The Musical).

    A damage-caster build (INT with Hecate and Rixil summons) has a lot more damage potential than Summoner 1.0 -and- is tankier than his predecessor (drop the extra 4% damage from Rixil for +15% sipping (no penalty anymore for statpack), +2 CON (on top of 13 base), and arctar/pyradius serving as a perma simulacrum). Your base damage attack is a whole second faster, which is a big deal both offensively and defensively, and probably translates to roughly a 50% increase in DPS using quicken over 1.0 warp (little incentive to use fire-based damage attacks here for the majority of situations and quicken is the fastest route to taint).

    Damage success relies on consistent pressure with burst potential. Timewarp + taint + timely use of unleash serves the latter purpose nicely (timewarp should be central in most damage scenarios). Duplicate and Incinerate (which you can keep fueled with quicken unless they turtle up) can keep good pressure on the target. The biggest problem, unlike classes that can dole out damage and control the pace of the fight through afflictions, is that the INT summoner does not have that sort of ability to manage the pace (short of forcing the target to shield). Tarot is very slow for the benefit (it is really a secondary/support tree in this build) and by nature infusion is not going to put the same sort of damage pressure on a target.  The net result is that an INT Summoner is going to be very effective in teams, and potentially struggle in 1x1...perhaps even moreso than 1.0 because of the change to aeon.

    The other wildcard is the impact/necessity of sash collar for the INT build. Lacking either probably puts your DPS somewhere in the realm of 1.0 warp -with- a sash/collar (yes, it was pretty bad). Unleash is a better, approximate substitute for the 1.0 passive demon effects, but once again aeon as an inhibitor has been changed (not saying this is bad), and this is going to make for tough sledding for a pure damage perspective in a number of scenarios.

    Summary: The class is as complex as you make it. The consensus is that it is worlds better than where it was, due to variety and potential. It still suffers from an identity crisis in that at first blush you have two distinct roads (damage and affliction), and an artifact INT build that is much stronger than 1.0, but at the end of the day the class is still a hybrid built around being able to effectively incorporate tarot and has a higher learning bar for maximizing this. If there is a tragic flaw, it's that you still don't have the singular affliction/damage/statpack synergy that many AM (or to a lesser extent, magic) profs have, but one man's perception of a flaw is another man's interpretation of variety/flavor. Clever is also more viable than it was with 1.0.

     

     

    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
  • IniarIniar Australia
    Awesome. So, in terms of how you generated, ie. thought about your offense, you prioritized the fastest repeatable attack to generate taint ('and quicken is the fastest route to taint') and briefly mentioned using taint for burst potential. How did you go about planning those intermediate stages of taint (40-80%)? Is it simply a matter of powering through with Duplicate?
    You also briefly mentioned managing the pace of the fight. How would Aurashift play a part in that, if any, and how would you set it up?
    Lastly, if you were to try and set up a devil burst chain, what would you choose as your starting point?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • edited September 2013
    Iniar, the logic for your enlighten queue looks pretty solid. To add to it, you can put in some conditions like:

    If unleash available then
    if buul available then
    unleash buul;give hellsight infuse aeon
    elseif not buul available
    unleash something else;give hellsight infuse fool
    end
    end

    That's something you can use to stack smoke after asthma stuck.

    For devil, I would just stick:

    If target physical + mental afflictions >= high number then
    fling devil
    end

    At the top of your queue.

    For enlighten/aff routes, I would always start with noctu/infuse queues like impatience/paralyse/justice/butisol/sunallergy. From there, the queue would differentiate depending on spark available as then usually some spark effects like intensify are required.
  • Taint (I hate this term btw) management is the sort of "class complexity" that is good for the game: the need for experience, common sense/strategy, and basic client work to manage a limited resource where getting to 100% isn't necessarily the best outcome (a power counter on status bar, or even highlighting taint messages to help you keep track of progress in spam). People tend to freak out (shield/run) when their health suddenly drops from green to red. That would favor instant or duplicate where the burst puts them in a bad spot by the time they realize what's happening (since cleanseaura is awesome at low health levels). Heave generates the same amount of taint as quicken but is even faster (and annoying). Maybe you stall with heave then punch them with pyradius and begin the assault with 100% taint in short order. Or maybe you simply strengthen every other aura attack with the goal of getting to them to 60% threshold for timewarp. Most people will also have one hangedman (w/ eerion) and one danaeus attack per minute to play with to help manage momentum too.

    I am personally not a fan of being able to "pre-load" aurashift (but Garryn felt it wasn't a big issue in beta), and I don't know if I prefer to go all Rocky IV (let myself get beaten close to death) so I can unleash hell in Round 10 (chained auras can be sort of funny), but aurashift is a unique situational skill that someone will complain about eventually. I haven't had time to use it because when I am low enough to make it a viable attack, I am also prone six ways to Sunday and have 4 people hitting me.

    An INT Summoner is going to have a hard time building up more than 3 affs at any given point, and devil doesn't really gain momentum until you hit the 5+ range (and if I can pump out good damage via an aura spell at 2.32 with diadem, why would I use a 3.2 balance devil attack?), so I would have to defer to a Fast representative on devil feasibility.

    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
  • First, we all agreed the shared pool is bad. The shared pool is bad for one reason. A bad teammate can kill your entire strategy. Not to mention, I want Eldreth blasting away and not Kanthari. Why? Eldreth's +3 int and level 3 collar hurt more. Kanthari is just wasting taint *giggle*. What's going to happen is some white knight hero is going to waste all the fury and the people who know what's up won't be able to kill. The shared mechanic makes no sense and honestly defeats the purpose of a resource bar. We added pyradius unleashes to accomodate "team environments" so you can burst up your FLAME MECHANIC (not taint).

    Team damage summoners are totally viable. They'll be more viable when I can troll on my incinerate (one per person, plz) without Kryss or Eldreth eating it all. The problem with it is that you have to kind of know what's up. Unlike every other class in Imperian Summoners get punished for using high damage spells back to back. I'm thinking of soulburn and soulwrack here. They're some of the higher burst spells, but the 2nd follow up is always less damage than the first. I really like the initiative to build in diminishing returns, but why do we have to be the only circle with a diminishing returns damage class in it? Yeah, I said that.

    1v1 affliction summoner is going to outpace damage summoner. This is really going to come down to the fact that it's not a druid and there's very little support for damage within the skillset itself. 

    Soulwrack
    Soulburn
    Incinerate
    Soulwrack
    Soulburn
    ...rinse repeat until dead or they're dead. (that's depth right there.)

    You're very rarely, if ever, going to nuke someone who has sensitivity stuck 1v1 in the int stat pack. Why? The affliction pressure isn't there to stick it. The biggest travesty of this beta was the invention of fast the lesser, also known as wise. We pretty much made the fast statpack for equilibrium and balanced the class around it. Any summoner who isn't fast statpack isn't going to churn out the afflictions necessary to capitalize on devil or stick things like sensitivity for a nuke-fest. I thought we were moving away from obligatory statpacks per profession?

    Pretty much what we made here was a more versatile deathknight. You have a damage build that's decent in teams, good at bashing and is a wash 1v1. Then there's the affliction build which hinges on an instakill(s) that's the bomb. Affliction > Damage. Not gonna lie, this sucks. We've effectively forced players into picking a "role" for combat that effectively closes a lot of doors for them down the road. It's also pretty fantastic that we've doomed the remaining 1/6 of demonic into the fast stat pack, because it's working out so well for the rest of the circle.

    --
    Also, I know some people (@Ragnar) are mad that summoner got un-druided in the beta. Not gonna lie. Even if Khizan and I weren't in the beta, summoner was looked at under a microscope. Because this class was going into demonic, this beta had more participation with more involvement from more players for longer than any beta I've been in before. People will refute this, but this is the way it was. There was no way any sort of OP was going to be introduced into the demonic circle. The zerg had spoken. Is this wrong? No. This is how it should be. Summoner is probably the best balanced class (which makes it fit in demonic) that the beta has released. This is both awesome and shameful, considering we're not actively going to go back and right the wrongs of :effort: in previous betas.


  • edited September 2013
    Ahkan said:
     I thought we were moving away from obligatory statpacks per profession?

    What on earth gave you that idea?

    Aside from Druid, every class has a division between its "Tanky Teamer" statpack and its "This is what you will actually need to overwhelm somebody decent in 1v1" statpack, and there's no real way around that unless we just want to remove statpacks entirely. 

    Druid manages it only by having such overwhelming power that nothing can stand up to a full out damagefest, and nobody thinks that's even close to balanced.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • I believe people when they say things :(


  • edited September 2013
    I don't like that we kept the class so hybrid (this goes for Mage too,kinda sorta..), because it feels like we put more effort in to the affliction side as a whole. I blame the general crop of people chosen for beta - not maliciously, but in a way that says 'you lined up a ton of people who think afflictions are the nuts, did you expect either class to become DPS primary?'

    The concept of damage soundly bored some of the testers who were invested in the outcome of the class on a personal level.

    I would have preferred we largely ignored the cute Enlighten nonsense and gave Demonic a powerful spellflinging DPS caster. Demonic didn't need another affliction class and Magick didn't need one either. Especially one that is ultra squishy.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • Sarrius said:
    gave Demonic a powerful spellflinging DPS caster
    But that's what we did - it's important to note that damage/DPS is not a variable enough concept to fill three skillsets - there are only so many ways to say "this does X damage if condition Y is met" (the aura-based attacks are like that, with the health threshold effects). So what we did is make professions that are versatile enough to be able to do both DPS and a more afflicting-oriented route.
  • edited September 2013
    @Garryn - I mean, in teams, sure? I just feel like we could have probably taken a different route with aura spells to supplement and solidify Summoner as the 'caster DPS' of Demonic, but several testers wanted to remain entrenched in this line of thinking that 'afflictions = good and cool' and 'damage = boring and Druid-like'. They fought for a hybrid, when Demonic didn't need another affspewing class. When we argued in favor of taking Summoners off the attunement leash, the biggest detractors fought tooth and nail claiming it was 'Bard-like' or 'too much like lame Druids'. We were essentially setting ourselves up for failure in this department because some of the testers had a predisposition against the idea of making a balanced, damage-centric caster class.  In the end, I would say Summoner is a hybrid leaning on the affliction side of things. That's how they win in duels. That's how they can crank out some damage (off the back of other people mashing afflictions) or instant kills (once again, can be piggybacked off other people's efforts or work).

    It's a little too early post-release to make assumptions (after all, some enterprising Summoner might figure something cool out that makes 1v1 DPS Summoner incredibly viable), but I guess my point is that employing a team of beta testers mostly comprised of dudes who think affliction classes are totally sweet, cool, and interesting is probably not the best way to provide a circle chock full of those things with something new (like a straight DPS class).
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • AhkanAhkan Texas
    edited September 2013
    Summoner wasn't what I expected it to be. I'm not really sold on more affliction spam in demonic, but eh. We'll manage.

    DPS classes are hard to balance. You either don't do enough damage (Defiler) or you do too much (Druid). The things I like about Summoner are that you're actually rewarded for skillfull application of abilities. Something you don't see in any other damage class. On the flip side, I hate that Summoner is the only damage route you have to know stuff. My big /sadface is that if you want to damage, you're kind of backed into intelligent. (which is sort of badass).

    One of the things I like (and hate) about Summoner is that you have to know a lot of stuff to be effective. Something you don't see in say...Druid.
    -Track spark
    -Know what spell to use when with spark investment
    -Track unleash cooldowns, both global and entity dependent
    -Track afflictions
    -Track their health. (This is weird. You're forcing people to throw a hail mary or use spam  trueassess. Bad trueassess spam will get you killed.)

  • At the tail end of the beta, almost everyone agreed that current Incinerate is very lackluster. It was you, Sarrius and many others that kept pushing for the toning down of damage of Noctu so Summoners wouldn't end up becoming Demonic Druids. I for one am glad for this toning down of damage though. Damage professions as a whole suffer from this dilemma of if target has this much health and this much tankiness, you will never kill that target 1v1.
  • I pushed for the damage to be toned down when we were trapped in the 'attunement to fire' paradigm. Once spark come out, we needed to tweak it, but nothing else.

    Incinerate is pretty strange, yes.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • IniarIniar Australia
    edited September 2013
    Garryn said:
    damage/DPS is not a variable enough concept to fill three skillsets - there are only so many ways to say "this does X damage if condition Y is met" (the aura-based attacks are like that, with the health threshold effects). 
    The one glaring thing missing from this (awesome) set of skillsets is damage leading into conditional damage. You have class(spell)-wide 'Strengthen' which is neat, but then it becomes a non-differentiator between skills. For example, 
    if target = prone, then skillA does +30% damage,
    if target < 40%hp, then skillB does +30% damage,
    if target has paralysis, then skillC does +30% damage,
    makes me -believe- there's a difference between A, B and C. The current crop of skills do dmgformulaA or dmgformulaB +- modifier(strengthen) and that's it.
    Ahkan said:
    A bad teammate can kill your entire strategy.
    That's part of playing a team game. You don't ask a defender to push up front (unless he's situationally good at it). It is sort of a Demonic thing I'm noticing; wanting complexity (see masochism). Good for old players, bad for new, but we'll beat it into them.
    Ahkan said:
    The biggest travesty of this beta was the invention of fast the lesser, also known as wise.
    Agreed. I don't know what it is. Hands down worse than Fast, worse than Intelligent. Not even Clever. Looking at @Khizan's initial post, he gave it an int of 14 -> this should've been the case; balance new statpacks around +2 artifact differences, because it's easy(ier) to say, I'll get a L1, it's only 400-600 cr, then 3 months later, forgot you paid that and say... hmmm, it's only 600-800 cr to go L2. Start with an L3 difference and it's a larger emotional hurdle (see USD 579.99 (holy mother!) > USD 168.99 (hmm, ok...) + USD 230)

    --

    Eldreth said:
    aurashift is a unique situational skill that someone will complain about eventually
    Maybe you stall with heave then punch them with pyradius and begin the assault with 100% taint in short order.
    Good -> 'instant' makes things very fun when it comes to situationals. It's a free use (that is, doesn't throw you off eq/bal) of a potential killing blow.

    For example.

    On prompt, if maxhp < 30%, check (known) taint of target (or all enemies) in room. If (any) > 60 taint, invoke aurashift <target> instant. 

    Speaking of unleashes, how are you planning your unleashes? (anyone) Do you predetermine a set cast of 5 demons and cycle through them? Do you tie them in with your damage combinations? Do you cycle them freely apart from your active skills? What conditions would you plan for, to alert you to pause an independent cycler? Is an independent cycler a really bad idea? Why?
    Ahkansaid:
    One of the things I like (and hate) about Summoner is that you have to know a lot of stuff to be effective. Something you don't see in say...Druid.
    -Track spark
    -Know what spell to use when with spark investment
    -Track unleash cooldowns, both global and entity dependent
    -Track afflictions
    -Track their health. (This is weird. You're forcing people to throw a hail mary or use spam  trueassess. Bad trueassess spam will get you killed.)
    Good, but which is also why I made this thread so players without an idea to start with can find some advice. So the par for course is the list above. The golden ticket is point 2.

    E: Great discussions, let's not talk about the beta (or if you need to, add in some tips about planning a summoner offense! :P) or Summoner v1.0, thanks. 
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • For example.

    On prompt, if maxhp < 30%, check (known) taint of target (or all enemies) in room. If (any) > 60 taint, invoke aurashift <target> instant.

    You can't use instant on aurashift. Or timewarp for that matter.

    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
  • IniarIniar Australia
    edited September 2013
    Forgot. Ashamed. L-)
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • I like the team mechanic game, honestly. A lot of games (Dota, Hon, LoL) function on this 'bad teammate mechanic.'

    The problem you run into, is that right now, Demonic would be the only circle with "Your teammate can devastate your set up."

    If Eldreth is pushing for a nuke from on high, Kryss can screw up by hitting what someone told her was 'the win button.'  There's no other mechanic in the game that does that. The flip side of this argument is with pyradius spamming, you could almost set up a perpetual nuke on someone and burn them down like an ant under a magnifying class, which is just another version of silly.

    I'm kind of on the fence about this, but Demonic really requires a higher 'coding' investment because all of our classes have some toxin tracking mechanic. Summoner takes an even higher degree to really milk the awesome. If you don't want to invest effort, you can always quit circle and play anything in AM, any knight, or druid...most likely druid. 
  • AzefelAzefel Singapore
    edited September 2013
    any terrible monk/pred (almost all of them) can screw up AM's set up :(
  • Idea for incinerate.

    Every tick, it lowers your fire resist by x amount. Gives you incentive to adjust your strategy to keep it going.
  • Ahkan said:
    I like the team mechanic game, honestly. A lot of games (Dota, Hon, LoL) function on this 'bad teammate mechanic.'

    The problem you run into, is that right now, Demonic would be the only circle with "Your teammate can devastate your set up."

    Well, quad break classes can also be messed up by that one teammate who set their target to left arm back in 2006 and just goes to town. 

    While it does suck to have a teammate wreck the entire team strategy, I'm still very much against Eldreth's proposed alternative of making it work like Kaido. That is stupid for the same reason quarterstaff imbue is stupid -- someone will quickly devise a way to roll into a fight with 100% of the resource and proceed to knock out half the opposing team with abilities that were designed as finishers. If bad teammates really end up being a problem, the 'better' solution would be to make it have individual tracking per-target-per-attacker, but that's the same line of thinking that ultimately lead bard resonance down the path to being the aggravating skill-less buttonmashing that it is today.
  • edited September 2013
    It wouldn't be like monk. It would be more like cleric, built against a target by attacking that target.
    EDIT: As for "moves intended as finishers", that isn't really how the class works. It would let you front-load some combos (probably through duplicate), but that's a bit of burst and not so much a finisher. Taint is balanced around the ability to generate it and use it throughout the fight. Just saving it until you hit 100 is the worst way to handle it.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • Kalon said:
    Ahkan said:
    I like the team mechanic game, honestly. A lot of games (Dota, Hon, LoL) function on this 'bad teammate mechanic.'

    The problem you run into, is that right now, Demonic would be the only circle with "Your teammate can devastate your set up."

    Well, quad break classes can also be messed up by that one teammate who set their target to left arm back in 2006 and just goes to town. 

    While it does suck to have a teammate wreck the entire team strategy, I'm still very much against Eldreth's proposed alternative of making it work like Kaido. That is stupid for the same reason quarterstaff imbue is stupid -- someone will quickly devise a way to roll into a fight with 100% of the resource and proceed to knock out half the opposing team with abilities that were designed as finishers. If bad teammates really end up being a problem, the 'better' solution would be to make it have individual tracking per-target-per-attacker, but that's the same line of thinking that ultimately lead bard resonance down the path to being the aggravating skill-less buttonmashing that it is today.
    I'm going to apologize in advance here. You don't know what you're talking about and you don't understand how noctu skills work or how taint investment works. It is not like resonance because there is no kill condition at 100%. It is not like quarterstaff imbue because you gain no benefit from maintaining 100%. You spend 'taint' to make your attacks 'slightly' better. It's more similar to fanaticism (kanai) that it is to kaido. 

    A problem you'll run into is that Eldreth is pushing damage. He wants to boost a spell's damage or relapse a damage burst on a victim or he's letting incinerate tick on someone. This is going to cost between 40-50% taint and 15% every incinerate tick. He can barely maintain enough taint to keep this going. Enter Doing-it-wrong who is spamming the same spell over and over because he just came over from Druid. He just blew 50-70% taint and Eldreth is crap out of luck.

    Your limb damage example is also wrong. With 1/3 and 2/3 messages you can track limbs pretty accurately, despite your team sucking. Let's be honest, one, maybe two people in AM actually count limbs. The rest of them just blindly attack with no care for parry, hits or cures. With limb damage everyone still gets the benefit of shrivel/break damage. With noctu, if doing-it-wrong wastes all of the taint on a target ever other summoner is stuck in "Well, back to square one...build more taint" just in time for doing-it-wrong to waste it again.
  • For the record, I didn't mean kaido from a "let's charge it up ahead of time", I meant in terms of individual power bars. Kanai would have been a better example.
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