Improving Imperian Combat

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  • RahielRahiel Member Posts: 51 ✭✭
    edited March 2015
    Little late, but I'm fine with demonic classes gaining Fitness provided they lose their passive forms of healing. I really dislike homogenization though. I feel that the problem isn't really with Fitness, but rather the problem lies with the sheer potency of affliction classes. Yes, I'm aware that Templar has Rite of Healing. I'm fine with them losing it if they have Fitness too. Or, Demonic can classlead that their forms of passive healing prioritize major affs first like Asthma.

    Case in point, look at Shadowplant and Saboteur. You're giving a class that ignores rebounding, has a strong passive offense once the snap happens, the ability to place a priority cure lower on the curing list with instill, etc. the ability to do a targeted cure denial. The fact that Fitness is required to deal with the class speaks lengths more about affliction classes than it does about Fitness. That's like arguing that Mathiaus needs more forms of hinder because Septus does too much damage to him.

    You won't hear me disputing how good Fitness is. I know it's good and I hate how necessary it is, but I don't really feel that giving it to everyone is the right direction. I'm fine with downgrading the effectiveness of Fitness (I know that Achaea made it so that you can't use it if you have weariness and it's only there to cure asthma, not as a defense) but affliction classes would need to be downgraded to compensate.

    As for disparities with statpack, circle, and homogenization... Yes, AM suffers from a bit of it since a bulk majority of the classes share a limb focus. If you folks want to suggest revamping certain offenses to make them more affliction oriented, be my guest. I'd probably support it since I agree to an extent. However, homogenization is going to be typical in some cases are there are only so many mechanics you can attach to a class offense before they become redundant in some respects.
    WysriasAhkan
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2015
    Passive heals are not as good as you think they are. If you're leaning heavily on a passive heal to pull your hind parts out of the fire that's bad. Passive heals are a nice perk, but they're pretty terrible to sit there waiting for "THE ULTRIX" which destroyed Wysrias faith in a sense of balance in the world. Basically, Ultrix got the dream tick of passive healing that broke the lock and then won the RNG lottery when she cured the lock afflictions in order. This doesn't happen very often. This almost never happens. "HEY PASSIVE HEALING COULD YOU HELP ME OUT OF THIS SOFT LOCK?" Passive healing is like: cured dizziness. Thanks man. Don't work too hard. 

    You know what's better than passive heals? ACTIVE heals. They're like the health pack when I need the health pack. I choose when to use them and this goes a long way, because I'm only going to use it when I need this. This is Cadmus. This is Might, Purify, arinyu. (@Mathiaus hero) I'm going to throw bliss on here as well.

    You know what's better than Active heals? SPECIFIC ACTIVE HEALS. These are the bees absolute knees. They cure a specific affliction. In the case of rage, this cures anything cured by galingale (mostly). Relax? Sweeeeet.Fitness? Oh my god, this is the lock breaking special. I know that whenever I use this that this affliction is ONLY and ALWAYS going to cure asthma. This is game breakingly amazing.

    Passive healing: Templar, Cleric, Wardancer, Defiler,Malignist, Bard
    Active random healing: Templar, Cleric, Bard, Druid, Hunter, Wytch
    Specific Active: Knights (including Templar which has 2),  Warden, Monk, Druid, Hunter.

    Tl;dr: AM dips into the hilarious healing abilities koolaid pull more than any other circle. AM is over represented in classes that have access to fitness. Demonic is under represented in fitness expression (like @wysrias said)

    What's also important is that AM also has access to more flat damage defenses be they flat resist, +2 con, +passive/active healing or even vitality mechanics. AM is also #1 in representing all of these abilities.

    AM is exceptionally good at resisting affliction offenses AND straight damage offenses while bringing 2-3 of the best affliction/damage classes to the forefront of the game. What are they not good at? It's why there's 8000 templars and Clerics and like 2 predators.

    **I may have missed a few, but you get the idea. I was going to make excel tablets with highlights and arrows but effort.
    Kudos to @Ozreas for being a hero and knowing all the things.

    Post edited to remove personal attacks. --Eoghan
    Post edited by Eoghan on
    image
    IniarRahiel
  • EoghanEoghan Member, Immortal Posts: 815 mod
    Had to delete some posts in here. I don't like throwing moderator weight around, please don't make me do it again.
    Like what we're doing? Why not take a second to vote? Vote for Imperian at http://www.imperian.com/vote
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ahem. PSA: (The State of Imperian Combat)

    image
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    KabaalJules
  • MereisMereis Member Posts: 100 ✭✭✭
    I am the one flailing in the bottom center, about to be pew'd by Septus.
    image
    IniarJules
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2015

    10:21 R> Wysrias: Well, like, if you compare it to other build up resources.
    10:22 R> Wysrias: Summoner builds taint very quickly and still puts out heavy damage pressure in the interim, and they can instantly generate quite a bit if they need to.
    10:22 R> Wysrias: Reave builds up just by using the attack and LNS transfers from target to target.
    10:22 R> Wysrias: Entropy has neither of those benefits - it generates very slowly and it's non transferable.
    10:22 R> Wysrias: You know what would be a neat team skill/defense?
    10:23 R> Wysrias: If a defiler's target with entropy built up dies in their presence, the entropy (or a portion of it?) is imbued into their flail and their next ravage delivers it to their target.
    10:23 R> Wysrias: You wouldn't be able to preload it like kai in this way, because your target would have to die.



    Defiler received (another) rework this round, and the major problem in teams is that entropy builds incredibly slow before you can 'cash it in' for a big bellow. This is a huge issue because their early damage from ravage is basically negligible, and they have no real affliction pressure to speak of either. I think the profession would benefit greatly from one of two things:

    A) An ability, let's call it "Fulfillment" or something, that does what I suggested above: when a target with entropy built on it dies in the presence of a Defiler, or maybe dies somewhere in the area with entropy on them, the Defiler absorbs a portion into their flail/treant. On their next flail/treant attack, this entropy is delivered to the target. Maybe this could be capped at like, 40% entropy or something, to stop someone from being able to instantly build heavy entropy and bellow, but still allow them to actually contribute to a team fight.

    B) An ability, let's call it "Efficiency" or something, that caps the total amount of entropy a Defiler can generate on a target (maybe 70%?), but dramatically increases the amount of entropy generated from each attack. Upon turning this defense off, the Defiler would be unable to generate entropy for a short period (5s? 10s?), to prevent it from being a toggle used to to build fast and then finish the momentum build for a 100% bellow. Alternatively, just have it completely drain the target's entropy when it's turned off.

    I know this sort of suggestion is entirely what classleads are for, but a) we just finished a particularly taxing round of classleads and nobody wants to go back to that right away, and b) defiler received a major overhaul that still has some very noticeable gaps. Right now, I don't think the class is a good choice at all for teams, because despite its tankiness and potential high damage, it builds so slowly that they're better off just entangle spamming.


    SelthisBathan
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wysrias said:

    10:23 R> Wysrias: You wouldn't be able to preload it like kai in this way, because your target would have to die.

    I'd just like to say that I would totally eat a death if it meant that my teammate could gib somebody out of the gates.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    KabaalDicene
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    Khizan said:

    Wysrias said:

    10:23 R> Wysrias: You wouldn't be able to preload it like kai in this way, because your target would have to die.

    I'd just like to say that I would totally eat a death if it meant that my teammate could gib somebody out of the gates.
    If there's a cap on the amount of entropy that can be transferred target to target, it should remove any incentive to cheese it this way. 40% or so would mean you could bellow in a few rounds, but not just murder your entropy-battery teammate to get a quick kill.


  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2015
    Wysrias said:


    B) An ability, let's call it "Efficiency" or something, that caps the total amount of entropy a Defiler can generate on a target (maybe 70%?), but dramatically increases the amount of entropy generated from each attack. Upon turning this defense off, the Defiler would be unable to generate entropy for a short period (5s? 10s?), to prevent it from being a toggle used to to build fast and then finish the momentum build for a 100% bellow. Alternatively, just have it completely drain the target's entropy when it's turned off.

    This sounds similar to what obliviousness in Kanai is supposed to provide, except that obliviousness comes with a damage penalty and a cure penalty (and not to mention use of fanaticism for any other skill will cost fanaticism, and it is a pretty slow build at 6 fanaticism generated per sap/smite).

    A few questions, because I'm not familiar with defiler after the recent changes:

    (1) How much entropy does an attack generate? Do different attacks generate different amounts of entropy, or is it fixed?

    (2) Other than bellow, are there any skills that will consume entropy?
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wysrias said:

    Khizan said:

    Wysrias said:

    10:23 R> Wysrias: You wouldn't be able to preload it like kai in this way, because your target would have to die.

    I'd just like to say that I would totally eat a death if it meant that my teammate could gib somebody out of the gates.
    If there's a cap on the amount of entropy that can be transferred target to target, it should remove any incentive to cheese it this way. 40% or so would mean you could bellow in a few rounds, but not just murder your entropy-battery teammate to get a quick kill.
    Death is utterly meaningless; I will totally eat a death for an opening advantage, especially since I could just get battlerezzed immediately with no penalty.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 524 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2015
    I think as long as the stored entropy must be transferred in the room it is stored in/or within like 5 seconds.

    Scenario A, successful entropy swap
    So Player A dies in a room with entropy on it. Killer X gets (.4 * entropyA) on their flail. Hits player B, player B has (.4 * entropyA).

    Scenario 2 failed entropy swap
    Player A dies with entropy on them. Killer X get (.4 * entropyA) on flail. Player B leaves the room. Player B leaves and doesn't get attacked by defiler for 5 seconds. Sad defiler loses stored entropy.


    Basically, each successive kill nets less swapped entropy because in theory you probably have less time to build it up before they die. And thus each time you transfer less. It just makes the start a bit better, since the max you could ever have was 40 entropy from the get go.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd just like to point out that  don't actually have a huge objection to precharging, really. There's a ton of mechanics out there that precharge, after all, and removing that entirely is a giant pain in the **** that doesn't really play well with how fights work; losing kai every time you moved to chase somebody would be awful, for example, and without mechanics like that you just cannot stop precharging.

    I'm just warning you that "requires the death of the target" is not going to be enough of a cost to prevent people like me from precharging it.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • IcariusIcarius Member Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Khizan said:

    ... removing that entirely is a giant pain in the **** that doesn't really play well with how fights work; losing kai every time you moved to chase somebody would be awful, for example...


    Or losing fanatism every time you change target.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My view on defiler is biased, but I’ll try to be as neutral as possible.

    Defiler is an immense class. It is one of the best classes in Demonic, and with new bellow, is one of the best classes in the game.

    It is based off a power-bar mechanic that has no counter, lasts for 60 seconds, is target-specific and can be gained at approximately 10% per round.

    The break down of gain is as follows:
    corroded ravage ~5% entropy
    eq skillset ~5% entropy

    The gain of entropy is gated by the ravage time, which can be 2.99s in +1 balance. Therefore, it takes approximately 30 seconds to go from 0% entropy to 100% entropy.

    At 100% entropy, the Defiler gains a very powerful edge: both ravage and eq-skill gain an additional touch of damage. A typical salvo goes from:
    ravage +5%
    torment +5%
    to:
    ravage +5%
    additional damage
    torment +5%
    additional damage

    This is the money maker against arti-tanks. Without this additional damage, Defiler will not kill a tanky class, ever. The key thing to note is that this additional damage is of the psychic type (!), which puts defenders at a double disadvantage (extra damage, lower resists generally). Again, this is the money maker against arti-tanks.

    Entropy can be expended in generally 3 ways:
    Bellow
    Germinate/Empower
    Evolve

    Evolve:
    A Defiler can use Evolve without balance once every 15 seconds (iirc). This evolve is entropy-free. Any other evolve used consumes about 10 entropy (iirc). The entropy becomes a splinter that lasts 120 seconds, and has a variety of generally mediocre effects. These effects are activated by the next skill.

    Germinate/Empower
    Once every 5 seconds (iirc), the Defiler can Germinate/Empower. Doing so consumes 10 entropy (iirc). Most of these effects are mediocre (but not all). In particular, the magnitudes of damage-enhancing splinters varies from 10 to about 40, with the exception of Elder splinter.
    Bellow
    Bellow is strong. At 100% entropy and with the right modifiers, it does 92% max hp in a single psychic hit. It scales non-linearly, so the value proposition only lies in using it at much higher values (75 - 100%). 

    Defiler also remains one of the strongest classes in Demonic even prior to Bellow change. It has chainmail, strong resists, limb resistance, affliction resistance, two methods to regain health, one method to obviate damage for 10 seconds, a method to bypass walls, a no-prep entangle, an on-successful-exit entangle, the ability to flood rooms, a relapsing writhe-enhancing affliction below 65% hp, a conditional channeled instakill that only requires being in-room at completion, a skill that penalizes fast attacks, a skill that penalizes curing (albeitly really inefficiently), a limited range of command skills, the ability to unphase people, an area affliction passive, a way to heal mana, a spy technique and a track technique. It allows for a level of micromanagement that is not necessary.

    -- here begins my opinions --

    Given all of these, in my personal opinion, Defiler is acceptably a poor starter. Pre-beta, Defiler was acceptably useful because most team mates would survive at least 5-8 seconds. At the going rate of 2 teammates for 20 seconds into the fight, with the ability to prematurely use Elder germinate (no longer a valid option), Defiler was no star but reasonably useful by the time we hit t=20. Whether ravage was stronger pre-beta, I cannot tell. Unfortunately, the ongoing damage meta has reduced the survivability of squishy squishies even more. This means that by the time Defiler (without her premature bursts) gets going, at least 4-5 team mates have died, in exchange for one strong attack against 1 opponent who is more than likely to have Redemption fire.

    This damage meta accentuates the problem of any class that is a time-bomb mechanic:

                               |
                               |
                               |
    ___________________________|
      ^    ^      ^     ^    
    { insert team deaths here }

    What would not be unreasonable is to allow for a mechanic that smooths out this output curve.

                    <<- original height
           ____
         /
        /
    ___/

                    <<- original height
                    
        ___
       /   \
    __/     \___

    My opinion about the solution that Wysrias proposes is that it appears to be a hybrid of a target-specific metric and a defiler-specific metric. I also think that it would not work well, sans cheesing it like pre-kai (which is acceptable). 

    I propose two other mechanics which could be considered:

    i) one splinter type is co-opted to increase the rate of entropy generation to 7% per strike. It will cap Bellow at 60%. It cannot be forcibly removed using germinate or bellow, so it is target-locked for 120s. This will allow a committed (120s) increased rate of generation, leading to a faster burst (60/14 ~= 4 ~= 4 * 3.0s ~= 12s), yet not allowing for a full Bellow.

    ii) in view of hybridising a target-specific metric, and a defiler-specific metric, allow for the existence of two metrics, ‘A’ and ‘B’. ‘A’ remains target-specific, and is generated by corroded ravages, and ‘B’ remains defiler-specific, and is generated by off-eq torment attacks. The effects of ‘A’ and ‘B’ may differ depending on expenditure; A will enhance pure output, and B will enhance resist-negation, or vice versa. In this manner, some decision making will be required for specific targets (known to have high resists, or planning to roll a greater defiler-specific metric over to the next target).

    All in all, the class really has a lot going on, but is limited both by design and by the meta and team make-ups. A smoother ramp up is desirable, but may simply be a reflection of the meta needs rather than a fault of the class per se.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2015
    Hey on the subject of improving Imperian combat... I am all about using whatever is mechanically available. That said, is it at all possible to make wearing the Raksha a prerequisite to use, so that some random devotioner who will be unnamed can't give it to me, force me to twist (thanks clarity) and lol? I don't really see how this is the intended function, and I don't see any form of counter, hard or otherwise.

    So, good/bad/ugly? I know the money love for Raksha keeps any classlead (no matter how well supported and loved) from touching it. Will this then be my answer, wait for classleads (with the similar implication of "We don't care and we won't change it because it was really expensive"), or is there something that should actively be done about this? Is there perhaps some counter I'm unaware of, or is forced travel with no counter what we are going for now?
  • LuthyrLuthyr Member Posts: 123 ✭✭
    Raksha band is the worst artifact IRE has ever come out with.  That said, $ prevents nerfing or removal.  
  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2015
    I am not interested in the futility of trying to change the desired and stated function. I am interested in counterless summon/movement mechanics brought about by lack of foresight, used on an object already implemented as the single most effective defensive artifact in the game. I don't feel this is a good time for a por que no los dos scenario, and I don't believe at all that it was the intended usage of the artifact. I think it is clever and all, but the person in question has never lacked for skill or cleverness, and no one with a brain would make that accusation.

    It is, I suppose, rather telling that the same people who cried oceans of very salty tears about easily countered summon and escape skills (a la empress and pathfinder/hermit) were directly involved in this instance of using the best escape skill in the game as a summon one as well. I suppose I should just be thankful I wasn't force twisted into a siege line? (Clarity edit: individual with band is not being referred to here)

    Another Edit (to avoid doublepost): I would really like an admin response here. If this is supported, I'll buy a Raksha and start hierophanting who I please. If it isn't, fix it.
    Eldreth
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I bugged it about 2 weeks ago, saying that offensive artifacts like weapons can't be wielded by a non-owner; likewise, since it can be used offensively, the Band should also be user-only. I suspect we'll get the standard response, but I guess this is how I feel:

    image
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Iniar said:

    offensive artifacts like weapons can't be wielded by a non-owner

     
    Collar, Sash, Gauntlets, Taekate belt, Basilisk statuette, icewyrm bracers, etc.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah I know, flimsy case, but none of them can take a person half the continent away. I honestly don't expect anything though.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    KalcerKhizan
  • LuthyrLuthyr Member Posts: 123 ✭✭
    You left and re-entered the room.  How is that broken?  It's the same as if you tried to fly to escape and were dragged back down.  Also, the runelorist isn't doing anything but standing a totem for you in this scenario which could be stopped by anyone on your team.  Just hit the guy/girl holding the totem and this won't work.
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭
    They can only target one person, and it's just as legitimate as endless ranged chokes with hold breath or being forced to ring twist out of a room.
    image
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    As satisfying as the crazy stacking sect favours are, what is up with the crazy stacking sect favours?  Is that going to stay or be changed?  I have a feeling this has already been discussed extensively, so I guess I'm just really asking @Eoghan what's going to happen or not happen.  
  • KabaalKabaal Member Posts: 303 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2015
    DANAEKINETIC SLAM

    image

    except for the whole "you not dying from it" part.

    E: He has unlocked the secrets to successful combat!

    Acolyte of Shadows, Thoregg is here. He is holding a grimy iron key in his left hand

    Jules
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 736 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Think I'll chip in on this one.

    Using stupid things to justify other stupid things just makes you look obnoxious. Its facepalmworthy when am does it and equally so when you do. If you're going to argue that being able to 100% uptime a damage totem is legitimate because forced twist is in the game, I think this topic is pretty much dead already.

    Personally, I don't have any issue with danaeus/tentacle. I think that's fine (because of the reasons Luthyr put forward a couple posts ago). However, that is not how it works. Totems are not channeled (that's fine and is a good thing), and do not fall on offensive actions (that is not fine).

    Danaeus/waterfall/vortex/whatever have been around for ages, and have proved to be pretty much fine. The ability to uptime the totem is all that has changed.

    BathanKabaal
  • LuthyrLuthyr Member Posts: 123 ✭✭
    Double opium doesn't take away standing a totem?
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    I don't remember why (or when) it was changed tbh.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Verexa
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    I think totems not standing on offensive actions are fine. There are ways to make the wytch unprop the totem in combat and it sacrifices offense (the balance of repropping) and defense (not being able to wield a shield) to prop in the same room as your target.
    image
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 736 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Let's agree to disagree. It doesn't particularly bother me (I just leave when the waterfall transfix loop starts), but I don't find those arguments particularly compelling for the following reasons:

    1. Not being able to wield a shield is pretty irrelevant when you have that kind of damage as a result of giving it up. See: every knight with a claymore pre changes, druid, probably other instances that don't immediately spring to mind.

    2. Cancel prop/prop loops are not a good mechanic. See: kill/resummon. Noone gets anywhere.

    3. Most importantly, you cannot make a wytch unprop the totem if transfixed, and if they can perform offensive actions while maintaining the totem, you will be transfixed. This is the big one, and why I personally just walk away (or bring friends).

    Perhaps its just a matter of perspective though, who knows.

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