What the argument forced people to do is admit that:
-Redemption is badass and you want to keep it
-Your classes are so tanky its retarded and you want to keep it
-Your classes are offensive power houses at low investments. You want to keep it.
-The cost is effectively nil because 2m = 100% devotion. You like this.
You want to nerf my damage and my tank because it's hard to kill me (Wys and I are at a level of investment, play style, skill, that it's not just the class that makes us hard to kill. You are not.)
Curtail the arrogance a bit and people might actually listen to you you know. I'm sure a lot of it is stubbornness because every time you present an idea it carries some form of insult or put down for your conversational partners. I know it makes my teeth itch to read what you write because of the sheer aura of misplaced infallibility it exudes.
The two bolded I take issue with considering a) The only AM class with a lesson sink skilltree is Templar and smithing, and b) Tank artifacts are virtually the first thing anyone buys when they do. Not spending a fortune doesn't mean people aren't carrying around appreciable tank.
I think if you can win a 2v8 (6? it grows with each telling apparently) then it's not that huge a problem.
I used redemption as a springboard into the topic of "Why devotion so good." You guys made arguments on "Why we should keep redemption" while I provoked you. The only really topic I cared about was the redemption cooldown and it's trivial cost (which Icarius is still having trouble grasping). Other skills (woodheart) have hour long cds. Why is redemption's only 120 seconds? No one has addressed this.
No one (aside from Septus, the champion he is) has addressed why devotion is so damn good. Cleric and Templar roll in solid #1 contenders for resists, passives, actives. They also check in rather high on the offensive chart. This is out of sync with the way the rest of the world was balanced where strong offense = weak defense. Why is that devo is strong offense = strong defense = strong utility?
To be fair, some of this should (hopefully) be resolved when we undo the terribad of last classleads where we tried to downgrade claymores and made them better (oops?). That's a step in the right direction, but you're still looking at cleansing/axes/flare and cleric shenanigans, so it's not too big of an offensive step back to justify the cornucopia of tank.
What the argument forced people to do is admit that:
-Redemption is badass and you want to keep it
-Your classes are so tanky its retarded and you want to keep it
-Your classes are offensive power houses at low investments. You want to keep it.
-The cost is effectively nil because 2m = 100% devotion. You like this.
I wish I could draw a confused arrow here because here's the disconnect:
You want to nerf my damage and my tank because it's hard to kill me (Wys and I are at a level of investment, play style, skill, that it's not just the class that makes us hard to kill. You are not.)
I think all this just goes to show that you really only hear what you want. Because either you didn't read anything I have written or your reading comprehension is just really bad. I never said don't change anything, I just wanted more than your opinion and arbitrary comments like the ones here on why.
And I think your last statement is a big issue a lot of people take when you suggest any changes. You think everyone but you and a select few are a bunch of unartifacted noobs, so anything that is capable of beating you and a couple of your buddies is broken.
I'm struggling to see where you're being used as a benchmark for
tankiness anyway, @Edmund. The complaint is about devotion as a whole
providing too much, and it is. Most of the discussion about tanking in this case will be pretty irrelevant until after classleads (when (if?) they're finished), since the classlead about Devotion being too much of a defensive powerhouse was approved. We'll have to see where it's tuned downward and if that's enough there.
To be honest, I never understood why devotion mechanics didn't get changed just like mage vibes since they were pretty comparable in terms of mechanics. The actual effects may have been different but they were/are both large room passive mechanics.
I'm struggling to see where you're being used as a benchmark for
tankiness anyway, @Edmund. The complaint is about devotion as a whole
providing too much, and it is. Most of the discussion about tanking in this case will be pretty irrelevant until after classleads (when (if?) they're finished), since the classlead about Devotion being too much of a defensive powerhouse was approved. We'll have to see where it's tuned downward and if that's enough there.
I may not be, as I said in my comment. I also clarified it with the only reason I would think @Ahkan was thinking about me when thinking about Templar tankiness is that he mentioned me in a comment when expressing how I was a 500h with burst damage/afflictions and revive.
edit: this idea was also reinforced by Ahkan's last statement in his previous comment. Because I am a noob with no investment that can credit any success I have solely to my profession.
I've said it a few times throughout this thread that I am good for change. I agree Devotion offers a lot, and to be honest I hate dragging around rites. I would be more than happy to give up some of that stuff for mobility or whatever. All I was really hoping for was some actual conversation around balancing instead of just saying it is too much take it away. But I guess that's a lot to wish for.
Cassius used shaite on you. H -60m [9.8%] [68] Pain floods you as the power of the We note strikes you. H -125m [20.5%] [142] Cassius used rubait on you. H -48m [7.9%] [54] Pain floods you as the power of the We note strikes you. H -125m [20.5%] [142]
Judging from taken vs. raw, looks like you're doing just fine!
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Lesson sink? Bold? Don't understand how these two are related. You still have to invest in tats/survival and all minis. When those 8 people make bad decisions and let their team get split up, it's easy to kill them. The numbers really depend on the fight. It varies between 2-8 v 2-16 v 2-20. Remember back in the day when you're blindly run into retardation totems and then blame the mage? It's like that.
@Edmund You need to stop thinking "omg he's insulting me." I wasn't. You don't make very good decisions. You haven't purchased artifacts to the degree Eldreth/Khizan/Ahkan/Juran/Wysrias/Risca have. Your lack of defensive tank (see: investment) and your bad decision making (see: skill) lead you to die faster than you should given your skillset (Templar/Cleric). It's really a synergistic behavior. When you know what you're doing and you've got artifacts you can roll a demonic team 1v8 in Templar or Monk. (See: Septus) That'll about do it for Icarius' argument as well, since he's toting that around like some logical atom bomb.
Icky's log is pretty nice but he has no idea what was going on and can't tell us his resist or the presence/absence of cruel lament. Your resist is better than Wys's Poor Wys. Should have been a cleric, apparently.
Honestly, (imho) Redemption hurts AM - it marginalises Predator, Wardancer, Monk and to a lesser extent, Outrider. If those classes didn't have vitality/refresh body/bladesurge, it'd be even worse. Because Devotion is so good, no new players really pick up your other classes, so no one really invests time into trying to fix the Predator/Wardancer/Monk newbie experience.
E: (I you @Wysrias, thanks for fixing diabolist/wytch)
Iniar, some of us (maybe a lot of us) are templars because we realize that we struggle to make effective triggers, and are far, far from being able to effectively uitilize some of the more complex classes, which require a far greater level of skill. Someone in the demonic "Drake song" thread mentioned that part of your problem is that all of your classes are awesome - if you have the wherewithal to play them. I'm actually pretty sure it was Verexa. Templar, on the other hand, can be played by somoene like me... or by Septus. And I'm not a Templar because it's crazy good (although it might well be that), I'm a templar because being able to use it in a basic way isn't hopelessly complicated.
Edmund has L3 bracelets, surcoat, L2 sip ring, Magick's Bane, L1 con belt.
How much more tank does he have to buy to be considered to have an investment in defensive artifacts?
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
On topic, I actually like the idea of getting rid of Starburst/other similar mechanics. I think they made more sense back when death was a lengthier process. At this point they're just a win more mechanic that ensures that the team with numbers has a far easier time staying on the field.
‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
I don't understand this situation. Edmund is not trolling around the forums bragging about being some kind of god tier combatant. He admits that he's very middling and is mostly looking for factual discourse on game balance. You all respond by making fun of him for not being very good, which he has already admitted.
‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
I have nothing at all against @Edmund, matter of fact last time I had IC interaction with him we talked OOCly too as I recall. Couldn't tell you what we spoke about but I remember him as a swell guy.
I guess it looks like I was bandwagoning on the hate train but I don't even play and have no clue what you cats are discussing. I felt like that gif finally found a home though.
Edit: words
On topic edit: Apparently Imperian's still arguing over whether or not templar has everything and more. Nothing much to add here, you either see it or you don't (which means you probably still see it but don't want to give it up). Re: vivi - everyone that has been around me for 15 minutes while there's peekayz has probably heard me wax intellectual about vivisex love. The message is cool, I loved the flavor because I didn't play Achaea, and it has been the sole reason why dk has been impossible to look at seriously in terms of overhauls/revamps/tweaks. Let it die the good death, or better yet, keep the skill and change the parameters, which should suit Garryn's dislike of outright skill deletion.
I have nothing against Edmund, personally. His arguments are "preserve my class" but yours is bad and needs fixing. Many of his arguments are based on benchmarks that he can't prove exist (see: lack of experience). Despite the fact he discounts his own ability (a sneaky strategy to increase his own honesty), he'll argue that summoner op because Ahkan, Eldreth, and Wysrias did well in it. That's not a benchmark, that's called skewing data. At the end of the day, Edmund will simultaneously agree that templar/cleric op (which is why he plays it) but will not offer any suggestion to fix it, despite the fact he presents himself as "the reasonable one."
Also, tbh, I didn't know Edmund had that many defensive artifacts. Khizan just made me wonder why Edmund goes down so fast.
The big thing that demonic has going for it is that it's an affliction wonderland. Based on the people you hang out with (AM) they have the terror of afflictions instilled in them since forever. In the past four years there are maybe six people (usually 5-10 per circle) people who track afflictions well. Afflictions are the great equalizer in Imperian. You may have 700h and 80% resists, but if I get my conditional instakill setup you're a dead man (or woman). Renegade/Assassin is the #1 example of this. Diabolist is probably #2 but you can actually stall a diab (See: Septus v Mathiaus), Wytchen is 'weird' because it's not so much an affliction class as a stick 1-5 and then WHY DO SO MUCH DAMAGE. DK is bottom tier knight affliction. Noctusari runs into some hurdles sticking affs. Defiler is just the demonic version of whack a mole with a hentai plant screaming seymour. For all of our affliction classes you build affliction overload by going fast. This makes you a white knight 1v1 god. This also makes you curb stomp victim #1 with your 450 health, sip malus, and general glass cannon-ness from the archaic aff classes are not tanky paradigm (2006). The work you put into being an affliction god is seldom rewarded with victory because it's such a niche play style now (1v1). You get more bang for your buck zerging out as an athletic templar. They new 'best' metagame is tracking your friends afflictions and being able to say Wysrias and Mathiaus stuck asthma, slickness, impatience, and epilepsy. What do I do now?
I have nothing against Edmund, personally. His arguments are "preserve my class" but yours is bad and needs fixing. Many of his arguments are based on benchmarks that he can't prove exist (see: lack of experience). Despite the fact he discounts his own ability (a sneaky strategy to increase his own honesty), he'll argue that summoner op because Ahkan, Eldreth, and Wysrias did well in it. That's not a benchmark, that's called skewing data. At the end of the day, Edmund will simultaneously agree that templar/cleric op (which is why he plays it) but will not offer any suggestion to fix it, despite the fact he presents himself as "the reasonable one."
Also, tbh, I didn't know Edmund had that many defensive artifacts. Khizan just made me wonder why Edmund goes down so fast.
The big thing that demonic has going for it is that it's an affliction wonderland. Based on the people you hang out with (AM) they have the terror of afflictions instilled in them since forever. In the past four years there are maybe six people (usually 5-10 per circle) people who track afflictions well. Afflictions are the great equalizer in Imperian. You may have 700h and 80% resists, but if I get my conditional instakill setup you're a dead man (or woman). Renegade/Assassin is the #1 example of this. Diabolist is probably #2 but you can actually stall a diab (See: Septus v Mathiaus), Wytchen is 'weird' because it's not so much an affliction class as a stick 1-5 and then WHY DO SO MUCH DAMAGE. DK is bottom tier knight affliction. Noctusari runs into some hurdles sticking affs. Defiler is just the demonic version of whack a mole with a hentai plant screaming seymour. For all of our affliction classes you build affliction overload by going fast. This makes you a white knight 1v1 god. This also makes you curb stomp victim #1 with your 450 health, sip malus, and general glass cannon-ness from the archaic aff classes are not tanky paradigm (2006). The work you put into being an affliction god is seldom rewarded with victory because it's such a niche play style now (1v1). You get more bang for your buck zerging out as an athletic templar. They new 'best' metagame is tracking your friends afflictions and being able to say Wysrias and Mathiaus stuck asthma, slickness, impatience, and epilepsy. What do I do now?
I think this bolded statement here negates anything else you said before it. I have mentioned my artifacts multiple times throughout this whole thing. Including a post that was just the results of ARTIFACTLIST EDMUND. So it would be pretty great if you would take the time to read stuff before posting comments and pretending to know my mind.
I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that I am like "preserve my class" I even suggested removing revive mechanics, and multiple times have said I am not against changes to Devotion. And I'm not real sure where you think I am out to nerf summoner. I think I made one comment about your unblockable ability to move someone out of the room.
I have not been adding benchmarks of anything, all I have done is ask 'why' and post comparisons to other classes or skills. Not like 'why' because I don't want it to change, but because I don't know or am not seeing the advantage of one skill over another. Starburst vs Redemption for example, they look pretty much the same to me except the gold cost and xp loss. So I am wondering why people are wanting it removed.
I have never said anything anywhere about not changing anything or preserving my profession or Templar/Cleric needs to keep anything.
The really funny thing is when I started being active again I picked up Templar like on day 2 because I thought, "I remember people saying you need skillz to be a knight, I'll roll knight and try to figure it out". It had nothing to do with devotion, thinking it was op, or anything else you have said. More to this point, and possibly explaining why I die so fast is I switched from athletic to fast so I could actually stack afflictions. I did this because I wasn't interested in rolling the athletic / strong claymore knight, even though it would make like easier for me in 80% of the pk I do.
Bolding doesn't negate anything. Templar is has innately greater tanking ability based on the skills from devotion than other classes. Better templar combatants than you have stated as much (Septus). This gets important when you're adding in large % resists for someone who does not have any mini-skills at all (now add the whole suite of awesome).
Your post just highlights what skewed norm, benchmark, status, whatever you want to call it that you're working from. I don't think you know enough (let alone apply what you know) well enough to make some of the statements that you're making with regards to class balance, especially templar.
Templar (and cleric) are both very strong offensively, very strong defensively, with ridiculous support mechanics. You don't see this overlap and synergy in any other class. #1. Why is this the case for devotion? #2. Why do other classes not see this degree of overlap/awesome. You haven't addressed that (because I don't think you can).
Bolding doesn't negate anything. Templar is has innately greater tanking ability based on the skills from devotion than other classes. Better templar combatants than you have stated as much (Septus). This gets important when you're adding in large % resists for someone who does not have any mini-skills at all (now add the whole suite of awesome).
Your post just highlights what skewed norm, benchmark, status, whatever you want to call it that you're working from. I don't think you know enough (let alone apply what you know) well enough to make some of the statements that you're making with regards to class balance, especially templar.
Templar (and cleric) are both very strong offensively, very strong defensively, with ridiculous support mechanics. You don't see this overlap and synergy in any other class. #1. Why is this the case for devotion? #2. Why do other classes not see this degree of overlap/awesome. You haven't addressed that (because I don't think you can).
Do you actually read anything?
edit: Because by 'before it' I meant in that post. Because the bolded statement shows that you haven't actually been reading posts because my artifacts were brought up multiple times.
I mean I think you are trying to have an argument here that doesn't exist. I have admitted to not knowing. I am not trying to give any data around why things should not change. I am really just trying to get some answers.
I'm of the opinion after a recent fight that yoth + runeguard sensitive dsls with bard and mage stuff is pretty comparable to what AM's got. And almost as strong defensively. Definitely more offensive utility. Magick damage has less resists too. Guess I don't see that much difference.
The fact that Devotion has a lot going for it is true, but I don't think it's as huge as people are thinking. The most common Devotioners that fight (that I've seen) are Ultrix, Seria, Chani, Khizan, Septus, Edmund, Arakis and me.
The thing all these names have in common are very large credit investments. Offensive and Defensive Artifacts after being trans everything. This may give the impression that their class is providing too much tank when it's a combination of decent class tank and high artifact tank. Personally I have sunk close to ten thousand credits into my things, and have found that fighting other players with other classes who have a similar investment they can tank me fairly well and I them.
We all go into this game knowing at some level that it is pay to win, but we do so anyway. It's not a fair game. I'm a little worried that the rebalancing being asked for is a result of artifact tank inflating decent class tank, which would be annoying for those who paid the money.
Reason 2: Cleansing (no aura) 100% chance of sensitive (rsl sowulu denies 3% damage increase)
Templar > Runeguard in terms of afflictions.
-RG requires more skill to use flares properly (no one does anymore)
-Templar just spam dsl. (sup penance)
Also important, your argument is bard+rg doing something a templar does by itself. That in and of itself is very telling of the balance of the situation and your grasp of it.
Comments
Cassius used shaite on you.
H -60m [9.8%] [68]
Pain floods you as the power of the We note strikes you.
H -125m [20.5%] [142]
Cassius used rubait on you.
H -48m [7.9%] [54]
Pain floods you as the power of the We note strikes you.
H -125m [20.5%] [142]
Judging from taken vs. raw, looks like you're doing just fine!
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
Lesson sink? Bold? Don't understand how these two are related. You still have to invest in tats/survival and all minis. When those 8 people make bad decisions and let their team get split up, it's easy to kill them. The numbers really depend on the fight. It varies between 2-8 v 2-16 v 2-20. Remember back in the day when you're blindly run into retardation totems and then blame the mage? It's like that.
@Edmund
You need to stop thinking "omg he's insulting me." I wasn't. You don't make very good decisions. You haven't purchased artifacts to the degree Eldreth/Khizan/Ahkan/Juran/Wysrias/Risca have. Your lack of defensive tank (see: investment) and your bad decision making (see: skill) lead you to die faster than you should given your skillset (Templar/Cleric). It's really a synergistic behavior. When you know what you're doing and you've got artifacts you can roll a demonic team 1v8 in Templar or Monk. (See: Septus) That'll about do it for Icarius' argument as well, since he's toting that around like some logical atom bomb.
Edmund has L3 bracelets, surcoat, L2 sip ring, Magick's Bane, L1 con belt.
How much more tank does he have to buy to be considered to have an investment in defensive artifacts?
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
I guess it looks like I was bandwagoning on the hate train but I don't even play and have no clue what you cats are discussing. I felt like that gif finally found a home though.
I have nothing against Edmund, personally. His arguments are "preserve my class" but yours is bad and needs fixing. Many of his arguments are based on benchmarks that he can't prove exist (see: lack of experience). Despite the fact he discounts his own ability (a sneaky strategy to increase his own honesty), he'll argue that summoner op because Ahkan, Eldreth, and Wysrias did well in it. That's not a benchmark, that's called skewing data. At the end of the day, Edmund will simultaneously agree that templar/cleric op (which is why he plays it) but will not offer any suggestion to fix it, despite the fact he presents himself as "the reasonable one."
Nevermind.