Discussion: Commodity Production, Replacements for Duplicate/Transmute/Devastate

EoghanEoghan Member, Immortal Posts: 730 mod
edited August 9 in New Ideas
As I mentioned in a comment in the Horde Caravans thread, I'm opening this thread for discussion of commodity production generally, and replacements for the commodity-related rituals specifically.

Commodity production is intended to be balanced to require the towne figurine quest to be run and some outside influence beyond towne production (in the form of caravans and/or inter-city bartering if caravans aren't being run). This is not the case. The largest issue that I see is the ease of producing commodities via the commodity-based rituals, so as a first step toward fixing the issue and bringing it back in line with original intentions, we'll be removing these rituals. Unfortunately, we can't do that until we come up with some new ones!

This thread exists for two major purposes
  1. PRIMARILY To suggest and discuss replacements for Aryana Duplicate, Moradeim Transmute and Sukhder Devastate. You can discuss why you think they should remain, but it will have to be an incredibly compelling reason, because at this point I'm pretty certain I'll remove them
  2. BECAUSE IT'S RELATED Discussion of commodity production
What this thread is NOT for
  1. Discussion of the Trade ministry in general. I know that it isn't most people's favorite thing, but that's a discussion for another time and place
  2. Discussion about other rituals that exist (except as reference for balance when replacing the three mentioned above)
  3. Discussion of Caravans (see the other thread for that)
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Theophilus

Comments

  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 315 ✭✭✭✭
    Duplicate/Transmute make my already painful life as a crafter/shopkeeper less crappy. Seeing as it is frequently a challenge to find all the commodities and frequently those commodities are outrageously priced yet required for things people who play the game don't really care about (like tailoring items), this strikes me as a problem not worth 'fixing'. 


    Sarrius
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member Posts: 401 ✭✭✭
    edited August 9
    Materials feel laughably bad at producing commodities. Materials turn into comms at 1:1 or worse with a gold charge, from how I understand it. It also doesn't scale to population, whereas the rituals provide a source that does.

    1. Increase city production rates dramatically, most easily done by increasing the ratio of mat:comm production. This also boosts the desirability of caravans as a hard PvP/E objective to boost production.
    2. Alter the figurine quest to be a smaller boost that can be done by every player. Where caravans would have a higher impact, a few extra materials would cover basic needs for every player if they help out their city.

    With that done, I could discuss changes to the rituals, but I'll come back in another post for that.
    Post edited by Gjarrus on
    Krysaliss
  • SumieSumie Member Posts: 56 ✭✭✭
    I dunno, I feel like a lot of the damage is already done. People have a large storage of comms already from these rituals which will forever have an impact on the comms market. Taking them away now would only seem to hurt newer people. Their shops will never be able to compete with prices from people with these stockpiles. I've always thought these skills were a detriment to the game, but to take them away you also have to deal with the problem these skills created at the same time
    KrysalissGjarrusWyll
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 315 ✭✭✭✭
    I was way late to the magic comm production bandwagon and can 100% attest to what Sumie just said. It's impossible to compete with the pricing other shopkeepers who are less lazy than me about it can afford without duplicate/transmute. 
  • SumieSumie Member Posts: 56 ✭✭✭
    Also i kinda miss old caravans. I liked running caravans from cities to townes and back. Had me near top for quest exp before that got broken with cairns
    Theophilus
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member Posts: 401 ✭✭✭
    A ritual PvE attack would be nifty as a replacement. Helps that all 3 of those are fairly low in their trees, too.
    TheophilusSarriusLaeka
  • SumieSumie Member Posts: 56 ✭✭✭
    I also think if that Guard's need to take a different kind of comm. As it is now it would make getting food comms for shops nearly impossible. Since cities obviously want to keep all they can to provide for guards in times of desperation. So i think a new comm should be made named "Rations" which guards would use.
  • OzreasOzreas Member Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    Gjarrus said:
    A ritual PvE attack would be nifty as a replacement. Helps that all 3 of those are fairly low in their trees, too.

    Snowballing from this and keeping to the concept of the tier 1 abilities in these trees being relevant to commodity generation: why not tie the systems together and make these abilities caravan-specific? Capturing caravans could certainly stand to be made more tolerable. Undeveloped off-the-cuff ideas:

      Aryana: Mollification: Pacifies all caravan-related mobs (including sentries) in the room for 8s. Targetting randomized afterwards.

     Moradeim: Loonacy: Transform all caravan guards into ducks for 6s. Ducks do less damage and are easier to kill.

     Sukhder: Isolation: 50% chance per caravan guard to be scared out of the room in an attempt to isolate the caravan merchant. They will return shortly after and target whoever used the ritual.
    TheophilusLaeka
  • EoghanEoghan Member, Immortal Posts: 730 mod
    As this is a feedback thread started by the administration, please avoid derailing it and making off-topic posts.
    Like what we're doing? Why not take a second to vote? Vote for Imperian at http://www.imperian.com/vote
  • NarujNaruj Member Posts: 43 ✭✭✭
    Consider an event that introduces several new commodities and defuncts the majority of others. Imperian is probably four years too far past the point of being able to 'fix' the commodity and trading market simply by removing Duplicate.

    You could pretty easily slim down the trade requirements to 10-12 things that don't currently exist, and seed them through villages. I would then suggest circling back around as your next 'big project' and looking into ways to encourage people to use crafted items again.
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
    Sarrius
  • NarujNaruj Member Posts: 43 ✭✭✭
    Related, because it's tied to commodity production:

    Consider introducing several 'help the towne' quests that result in some amount of raw production or finished commodities. One of the major issues with Duplicate is that it was 'free'. People were bashing anyway, and Faith was so easy to get, that commodities became a bonus reward. There is nothing necessarily wrong with allowing players to earn commodities outside the Trade system in exchange for time, you just have to gate them appropriately.

    Quests would let players directly contribute, help with economy scaling, and let traders earn the things that they need to make niche stuff without spending a fortune. You can also restrict them with a cooldown, townes don't need help constantly, if you want to limit the amount of comms that come out of this method.
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
    TheophilusOystir
  • SumieSumie Member Posts: 56 ✭✭✭
    I don't know what the best case scenario, but I'm the type that loves to play harvest moon.

    So if we do end up with a commodity revamp. Let us have farms to harvest and grow our own food. Mining to go mine our own ores or cutting trees for tradeskills. Basically let townes create the materials a city would use(rations, stone, wood etc) and individuals to make the items required for tradeskills. The comms made by townes would then have carried to the city by a caravan. The caravan would either start when a towne is full on resources or a trade aide could start it early so that players can defend it. Creates a situation where an enemy can starve a city for resources if not done properly.
    KrysalissMercer
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 315 ✭✭✭✭
    @Sumie - I am soooo down for a Harvest Moon esque commodity generating system. 
  • OwynOwyn USMember Posts: 116 ✭✭✭
    @Kyraic I'm pretty sure this kind of logic is exactly what got raiding made useless for a while before they made it what it is now.
    SwaleAodanAnette
  • DimitriDimitri Somewhere coldMember Posts: 140 ✭✭✭
    Sumie said:
    I don't know what the best case scenario, but I'm the type that loves to play harvest moon.

    So if we do end up with a commodity revamp. Let us have farms to harvest and grow our own food. Mining to go mine our own ores or cutting trees for tradeskills. Basically let townes create the materials a city would use(rations, stone, wood etc) and individuals to make the items required for tradeskills. The comms made by townes would then have carried to the city by a caravan. The caravan would either start when a towne is full on resources or a trade aide could start it early so that players can defend it. Creates a situation where an enemy can starve a city for resources if not done properly.

    I've been in a game that had a system VERY similar to what you're asking. There's two problems with that, people who like to do the monotonous commodity grind are very rare in my experience, and secondly- all it will do in the distant future is generate some REALLY  smart commodity people (looking at you EveOnline) and no one will be able to go anywhere but some city that has everyone enemied just because they hold all the comm cards and are declaring themselves winnarz.
    Now Imperian is different from said unmentioned game, multiclassing is possible. So everyone can have a tradesman in their back pocket to prevent the inevitable reliance on those who really like to dig in the dirt (its bad news when they all disappear for one reason or another) and raiding works much better here than it did there.
    So... I have my reservations about it, but i'm not against the idea you put up.
    I have a tiny screen, and big thumbs. And im not sure how well my post was thought through.

  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 723 ✭✭✭
    Speaking as someone who actually tries to do the Trade Ministry in Antioch rather than just coasting on a title, the costs of production vastly outstrip the potential net income from the commodities.  A profitable trade ministry is basically only possible if you are selling only to non-citizens, and not upkeeping guards and the other internal drains on commodities like siege and supplying professions.  The game's economy has been imploded for a while, and this very much is at the core of it.  The caravans change might have made it less boring, subjectively, but it also ruined the economy, not to mention the introduction of smelters.
    image
  • ZerinZerin Member Posts: 46 ✭✭✭
    Antioch has so many commodities that you shouldn't need to be spending anything, just releasing more for sale.
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