Issuing and being issued

DreacorDreacor Member Posts: 98 ✭✭✭
Hey!

I think we need a new, separate topic for this. There has been situations where people doesn't know when to issue or when to not. Please, let us know what is the situation here and what is solved in an instant. All that information if precious for us since we have new players that might not know all the Imperian's rules. If there's no issues, tell us why something should be issued or not issued. I hope this will give us the general way what to do with issues or not. Thank you for the co-operation.

-Dreacor Blackfyrre

Comments

  • DreacorDreacor Member Posts: 98 ✭✭✭
    Sorry for to post secondly on my topsic, but I don't have english as my mother tongue and I wish I knew english better as I do now.
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    edited October 2016
    A lot of the really good information is in the Clueless thread. I wouldn't mind if they moved it here at all.

    There are some really fundamental things that I don't think most players really understand - including the limits of what the PK rules and issue system are really intended to do, and how much wiggle room is actually in the rules. To be fair, the rules are rather cagey about this. The rules DO tend to give players the impression that if they truly just mind their own business, they shouldn't become a target. That is well, sooooort of true. But not quite.

    EDIT: there is also the problem that a lot of Jeremy's first big post there applies to a lot of people. You do have to avoid the obvious pitfalls first. What I don't think everyone realizes is that even if you are following all of that good common sense stuff, people can still find ways to come after you if they really want to.
  • VeratyrVeratyr Member Posts: 75 ✭✭
    I've been playing this game off and on since 2004. I've only been issued once, that was because I got DC'd and someone was chasing me and didn't get their kill. All the other issues have been bugs about myself. I've never had to issue anyone myself. If someone was repeatedly killing me over and over, I just logged off, or went and did something else. Back in the days when people would jump you while bashing(Dregs and Jugs and company), it happened quite a bit. But looking back, that was half the fun.

    Nowadays, with the "designated" pvp zones (shardfalls)...I dont know. That stuff never really interested me.
    Anette
  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 152 ✭✭✭
    Dreacor said:


    -Dreacor Blackfyrre

    You spelt your own last name wrong. Damn dude.

    OT: I've only had to deal with issues twice in Imperian, personally.
    1. Mouthy leader who was persistent in kicking me from city during an election, despite it being quite clearly against the rules, particularly when her reason was "I don't want you voting against me." - Oddly enough she ended up leaving the city instead, when I issued her.
    2. Issued for taking a hit on someone and killing them when they were out bashing. They were pretty persistent I had no reason to kill them, and that I was gonna get shrubbed. That issue got dismissed pretty fast.
    Some people are pretty stuck into the idea of not reading the rules, or only ever point towards the rules when it works in their favour, despite constantly breaking the rules in question they're pointing to. Fortunately the majority of those types (from my experience) have either stopped playing, or retired.
    image
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    edited October 2016
    It's interesting to see an issue about the political side of things. Still, you see a similar dynamic - I think issues seem to only be for REALLY clearcut cases that violate some hard and fast rule. Basically, for something to be issuable? The person you're issuing has to be kind of an idiot. If they're not an idiot, you've got a much tougher problem, and issues aren't going to help. I'm not too into the political side of things, but I'm pretty sure there were a lot of far, far better ways to get rid of you if she'd been smart about it (for starters doing it with less suspicious timing). I'm not saying that would have been right, by the way - I'm saying she would have got away with it.
  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 152 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Me being kicked was actually one of the reasons she was contested in the first place; people started getting sick of how she was acting as City Leader. Virtually none of the other leaders were with her, and were the ones who kept re-inducting me.

    If someone is doing something that actually warrants them being issued, chances are they're at least partially an idiot anyway. How not to get issued is pretty common sense. Case in point: one of her buddies was using ouroboros MINDREAD to listen to a completely obviously OOC conversation, she decided that it wasn't OOC and tried using that as a reason for kicking me and a friend. Doesn't work like that sorry.
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  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    Well... she'd need two (I think). Apparently she didn't have two.
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 774 ✭✭✭
    Aysari said:

    Me being kicked was actually one of the reasons she was contested in the first place; people started getting sick of how she was acting as City Leader. Virtually none of the other leaders were with her, and were the ones who kept re-inducting me.

    If someone is doing something that actually warrants them being issued, chances are they're at least partially an idiot anyway. How not to get issued is pretty common sense. Case in point: one of her buddies was using ouroboros MINDREAD to listen to a completely obviously OOC conversation, she decided that it wasn't OOC and tried using that as a reason for kicking me and a friend. Doesn't work like that sorry.

    Dragging OOC stuff IC is a pretty clear-cut way to end up on the losing end of an issue if someone choses to issue. Most people don't, which is half the reason many people have problems with stuff to begin with. The admin cannot action things they are not made aware of, and I imagine even if Jeremy had the time of day to sit watching the log and could somehow manage parsing all of that in real-time, he still wouldn't want to.
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  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 152 ✭✭✭
    Anette said:

    Dragging OOC stuff IC is a pretty clear-cut way to end up on the losing end of an issue if someone choses to issue. Most people don't, which is half the reason many people have problems with stuff to begin with. The admin cannot action things they are not made aware of, and I imagine even if Jeremy had the time of day to sit watching the log and could somehow manage parsing all of that in real-time, he still wouldn't want to.

    Oh I know, I was stating my experiences with the issue system; she seemed curious as to exactly what transpired! It's amusing to see people who think they're so far above the rules, get crushed beneath said rules.
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  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    Contract gives the victim a line right? I am sort of assuming it does. It would be confusing it if didn't - but still, not issuable contract or no contract.
  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 152 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    "Thin man" hits only give you a line when you're killed, I think. I haven't had a hit on me, only taken them, so not really sure. I know Achaea's version does. Like 90% sure you don't even get a line when you have a bounty taken on you, only when you're killed.

    If it gave you one when it was issued/taken, it would be pretty easy to permanently avoid having them completed. With the thin man hits though, multiple people can take the hit; first to complete it gets the reward and the hit is completed. Everyone else who wanted to take it, is SOL.
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  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    Right, I meant the kill line. I guess there could be some interim confusion if you forgot about thin man (since you can check), but I meant kill.
  • KyraicKyraic USAMember Posts: 66 ✭✭✭
    Aysari said:

    Case in point: one of her buddies was using ouroboros MINDREAD to listen to a completely obviously OOC conversation, she decided that it wasn't OOC and tried using that as a reason for kicking me and a friend. Doesn't work like that sorry.

    No, it absolutely 100% works this way.

    Anything that I hear inside the game itself can be taken as 100% IC. Anything. It doesn't matter what it is. It doesn't matter if you put up your ((rp shields)) or if you erect your //rpbarrier. If I hear it, I can take it as IC and I can act on it. Any channel, any subject, with anybody. The only exceptions to this are if you are talking to Jeremy and the other OOC admin characters. Everything else is IC and actionable.
    LartusAysariAnette
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    edited October 2016
    I imagine you do have to hear it firsthand to be allowed to act on it? In other words, you should be able to give admin a timehack, and if they go check logs at that time, they will see YOU listening to a ring conversation with that ability (for example).

    If it were much looser than that, everyone would have insult PK on each other after every shardfall/gank/mono fight, pretty sure.
  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 152 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Kyraic said:


    The only exceptions to this are if you are talking to Jeremy and the other OOC admin characters. Everything else is IC and actionable.

    Strange, considering admin ruled against it. But you don't know the context of the conversation, so that's perfectly fine. :)
    If that was the case, there also wouldn't be clans that are explicitly OOC, where you can't bring said "information" IC. Stuff that has also been ruled against, when it has risen. Tells function the exact same way, sorry!

    @Kiskan: Mindread is tells only.

    eta: "Anything involving you as a player of the game, rather than your character as a person who lives and exists here, is OOC." Case in point: Just because you hear the name of a character who happens to be in the game, (especially when it's not your character), that doesn't mean you can bring it IC and say "But I heard them say my name!!!!"
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  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    edited October 2016
    The thing that actually matters was probably kicking you during the election. If she'd done it at a different time, it (likely) wouldn't have been issuable at all. You'd have to be (somewhat) careful there lest you reach a certain threshold where admin realizes "this CL kicks out a LOT of people" and enough people are starting to talk to each other, and there is some real buzz about you kicking a bunch of people out, but I am pretty sure you can kick someone out of a city at any time, for any reason - except at election time. Which let's be honest, is kind of terrifying. Anyway, that is my guess as to why you won the issue.

    Now if she'd heard that conversation and ganked you both, she'd be golden.

    Ah. Tells a bit easier to account for.
  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 152 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Kiskan said:

    for any reason - except at election time. Now if she'd heard that conversation and ganked you both, she'd be golden.

    Not entirely true. If you have a legitimate and sound reason, for kicking them out, then it's passable. Regardless of it being an election.- Unfortunately that character's retired, so I can't give you messages I got from admin about it.- You can't just kick them out for talking bad about you. Were that the case, elections would probably never finish. And we'd have some pretty dull cities.

    Were she to "gank us" for hearing from a third party (as this one was), about a conversation that was not actually about her character, she'd have gotten in more ****. See: the quote from HELP OOC that I just mentioned.
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    Anette
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    Oh, right. It was the friend that listened, not her... nvm.
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 774 ✭✭✭
    I'm increasingly dismayed at the comments in here that show people haven't read the relevant help files.

    Metagaming/seconds abuse/ooc faff in general has been the one thing that has been consistently issuable since day 0.
    image
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,184 admin
    @Aysari

    I don't remember this instance. But, we are not normally going to get involved in people getting kicked out from a city unless it involves an election happening. We may get involved if someone kicked you because you were about to challenge them.

    If you say something about another player in the game, or talk about your plans in the game, we are not going to police if it is OOC or not.

    If someone is kicking people from a city because of personal grudges, that is fine. People do not have to have any reason to kick you out of a city. They can just hate you and kick you. The person either has the political capital to get away with it, or other people in the city will get tired of it and remove them. Politics, building alliances, and enemies are all part of the game. It's kind of like Survivor (not that I watch the show) and can be played like that.

    KiskanKyraic
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Yeah, it took me quite awhile to really understand the whole "people can be kicked out of an org at any time" (but I did understand it by the time I was responding above). My only problem with all of this is that people do generally walk into a game thinking that admin will protect them if someone is too awful, but that's not really how it works with IRE. Like I said above, someone has to be a real idiot, for something to be issuable. And the way the rules read further lull people into thinking "if a person or group of people are really gunning for me, I am able to turn to admin for help" - but that is generally not the case. I think a lot of players would be pretty surprised to know that they can be kicked from an org at any time, for any reason - it took me a long time to know that was a "thing", and being privy to leadership decision making, to really understand that, actually.

    People who are following all of the "guidelines" let's say, are going to get super frustrated if they end up targeted, because they had a misconception that admin provides SOME protection. But the guidelines are more to keep yourself out of the crosshairs in the first place. Admin is not (mostly) going to say "okay, you were holding up your end of the bargain (so to speak), and your attempts at IC resolution failed, so we actually will tell BillBob to stop beating the tar out of you".

    I felt pretty sure that was true coming in to the conversation, but now I feel more confident that it's true. And it's fine to say "that's how it is" but I think players should be made much, much more aware right away that they are NOT protected from most sorts of griefiness, and that it's pretty much on them to either not get on a griefer's list, or to be able to have the wherewithal (political or combat, or both) to strike back effectively. I mean, the relevant help files should be written more like... admin will usually not interfere with the game for any reason, and will only step in if say, you're logging in everyday, and someone is killing you everyday. If you start logging in less? And they still kill you every time? Probably on your own. People need to understand how hands off admin really is, basically, and the current rules make things sound gentler than that, so people think they have more protection than they really do.

    Also, I've never watched Survivor either, but the whole point is to be a backstabbing asshat :(

    EDIT: and of course the whole thing can still be a fairly livable situation - depending on how the game's mechanics are done, and whether they make the landing softer (or harder) for people who might end up rogue for a bit, or someone who is being targeted by some people, and so forth.
    Post edited by Kiskan on
  • EvaldirEvaldir United StatesMember Posts: 9
    Jeremy said:

    @Aysari

    If you say something about another player in the game, or talk about your plans in the game, we are not going to police if it is OOC or not.

    I'm really glad this is a thing. I've never experienced it much here, but I have in other games, where people would purposefully go OOC thinking it would get them out of trouble ICly for it.
  • KyraicKyraic USAMember Posts: 66 ✭✭✭
    Many people in this game have been upset to learn that their ((rp shields)) could not protect them from the consequences of trashtalking.
  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    Kiskan said:

    Contract gives the victim a line right? I am sort of assuming it does. It would be confusing it if didn't - but still, not issuable contract or no contract.

    Aysari said:

    "Thin man" hits only give you a line when you're killed, I think. I haven't had a hit on me, only taken them, so not really sure. I know Achaea's version does. Like 90% sure you don't even get a line when you have a bounty taken on you, only when you're killed.

    There is a line you get when you die to someone who has taken on an assassin job/contract to kill you. It's typically lost in the rest of the death spam you get though, so hard to see.

    As a side note, there is no "notice" when someone puts out a hit on you. (On the other hand, if you get bountied by an org, there is a message you get.) IIRC, certain (bashing) mobs you kill can also hire out assassin contracts, so it's not just players that can do it.
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Kyraic said:

    Many people in this game have been upset to learn that their ((rp shields)) could not protect them from the consequences of trashtalking.

    I mean, you can still talk PLENTY of trash though (and people definitely do) - as long as you can kill the person you want to talk trash about. The only other exception would be that they have enough political clout in your org, or an org you want to join. Jeremy is right, it's more like Survivor, basically.

    And yeah, I was figuring you probably don't get a line when someone takes out the hit (but was thinking you probably get a line when someone completes it - and yeah, I bet it is the kind of thing you'd easily miss unless you'd seen it before and have it highlighted, or check logs). You can go talk to the guy and see what jobs he has though, and I THINK he would tell you if you were one of them (if someone jumps you while you're talking to him and you get the death line, that's an answer too).
    Post edited by Kiskan on
  • KyraicKyraic USAMember Posts: 66 ✭✭✭
    Kiskan said:


    I mean, you can still talk PLENTY of trash though (and people definitely do) - as long as you can kill the person you want to talk trash about. The only other exception would be that they have enough political clout in your org, or an org you want to join. Jeremy is right, it's more like Survivor, basically.

    This is what the assassin system is for. Somebody you can't kill talking smack? Put a hit out on them and let some anonymous goons do your killing for you.
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Kyraic said:

    Kiskan said:


    I mean, you can still talk PLENTY of trash though (and people definitely do) - as long as you can kill the person you want to talk trash about. The only other exception would be that they have enough political clout in your org, or an org you want to join. Jeremy is right, it's more like Survivor, basically.

    This is what the assassin system is for. Somebody you can't kill talking smack? Put a hit out on them and let some anonymous goons do your killing for you.
    I (naively, as usual) thought the assassin system actually worked... until Iniar LOL'd at one of my comments. And it turns out that the reason is because a hit he'd taken out sat for many, many months. The assassin system is interesting. Most PK-ers will only complete an assassin hit on someone if they dislike the target personally AND the target does not have ANY powerful friends. People also won't take contracts on people they're remotely friendly with, as a general rule (and I am pretty sure that people would consider it a personal affront if a friend, or even a friendly acquaintance, fulfilled a hit on them). Septus is a possible exception, and probably the only one. He might just do a hit because it's Christmas Morning and there's a hit in his stocking. It is, once again, not what most people think it is. In fact, the assassin system is more likely to be used against someone being targeted than against a powerful smack talker.

    All of this is probably why Lusternia ended up using a mob to get the job done. A mob doesn't care if it ruffles OOC feathers by getting the job done. The problem is that most PK-ers are on friendly terms with one another on an OOC level. There are some exceptions, but that's the general rule, so it's hard to get them to go after each other in such a personal way. Because a hit really is saying "I don't even know what you did, but I don't care, I'm up for killing you on behalf of whoever wanted this contract". Worse, if the contract is on a big name PK-er, chances are that it was taken out by a non-com, and PK-ers often have very, very heavy disdain for non-coms and don't think they deserve recourse in the first place (get gud, noob). Bounties, in contrast, often get cleared in the course of ordinary PK. I think those, too, would sit and rot a bit if they worked more like contracts.


    Also, I found an interesting snippet about Survivor. I never watched it, but I do remember reading that the first season was probably the most interesting, and apparently it's the 6th season that REALLY changed the game forever. This is why I really don't like Survivor as an idea, and certainly don't want to play it. You really only need to read page 28 if you're interested, and possibly a bit before and after if you want, but page 28 has the meat of why a game like Survivor is problematic (especially long term):

    https://books.google.com/books?id=FdrILXwh7nEC&lpg=PA28&ots=tUWXWDrrgQ&dq=survivor%20show%20psychology&pg=PA27#v=onepage&q=survivor%20show%20psychology&f=false
    Post edited by Kiskan on
  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 152 ✭✭✭
    Kiskan said:


    Most PK-ers will only complete an assassin hit on someone if they dislike the target personally AND the target does not have ANY powerful friends.

    Idk Kabaal takes hits on whoever's available... Drawback to that is people rarely ever even leave their cities anymore, regardless of if they know someone is after them >.>
    image
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    edited October 2016
    I really like Kabaal. People like that are fairly rare, though, is my point. And Kabaal is quite good, but he's also not going to take out the artied top tier - who tend to be some of the worst smack talkers in practice, exactly because they feel confident they can get away with it. The other thing about assassins? You are at BEST going to get a single death on your target for what may have been (and probably was) a metric shitton of smacktalk.

    EDIT: and that is basically just how it is, but to say "people in this game have been upset to learn that their ((rp shields)) could not protect them from the consequences of trashtalking" without recognizing that that standard is never applied anything close to equally, is just too much galloping hypocrisy to let slide.
    Anette
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,184 admin
    And on that note, this thread has run its course.

    AnetteKiskan
This discussion has been closed.