Obelisk/War Update

JeremyJeremy Administrator Posts: 1,121 admin
edited October 2016 in General Discussion
This is what we have been batting around a little. This would mean an end to obelisks and outposts in their current format.

NOTE: We are looking for feedback on this. We may not do it at all and go back to the drawing board. Looking for feedback on the direction of the idea. We want it to have less of a minigame feel (like the current obelisks) and something more real feeling. This probably means we would be leaning more toward Option B over A, as A is in a mini arena versus the city itself.



Basic Summary

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We have a couple of options we are working on with this. In short, we would move obelisks into the cities as a raiding objective. We would create around nine more objectives per city for a total of 10 (see below). Cities would be able to raid other cities in an attempt to steal an objective.

We have come up with a couple options for this.

Option A: Create a battleground area for each city. These are similar to arenas in size, are themed after the size and shape of the city. Specific rooms are assigned for each objective (see below).

Option B: Just use the cities to be raids. This means changes to how guards work. We would have a hire and upkeep cost, but they would reset after a raid. Lots of guard tweaks for this. Cities would have to be more 'raidable' during a raid. Archers and stuff would probably be distracted and unable to help during a city raid.


General Plan

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Players must go to a set raid room outside of the city and RAID cityname FOR objective.

A city can only raid another city once per real day.

Raiders at the raid room are taken into the battleground area or into the city.

Raids will only last 20 minutes, after that the city archer and other defences are able to kill enemies in the city fairly easy.

Raids will have a 5 minute declaration period.

Raiders and defenders can come from any org, as long as they can access the entry points and are allied to the org.

Different objectives have more or less objective points.

TOPCITIES is changed to just reflect which city has the most objective points.

City logs will reflect raids - City has captured x objective from other city - City has defended x objective from other city.

CITY RETURN objective TO city: Cities can return objectives or recapture them for other cities and give them back.

More objective points based on the number of defenders killed/participating. Perhaps on the kill to death ratio?



Option A - Battleground Specifics:
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- Defenders can join at anytime during the 20 minute raid and will start in a set safe room where they can organize.

- Raiders have 60 seconds to join the raid and once killed cannot come back.

- At the end of 20 minutes, if any raiders are still alive and in the battleground, the raid is sucessful and the win the objective.

- Optionally, raiders DO come back as much as they want and have to complete an action as detailed in Option B.


Option B - City Raid Specifics:
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- Raiders have to complete an action within 20 minutes in order to win.

- Each objective would have a different action. For example, the standard objective would require the raiders to drag it from its start room to the exit. The movement would take a long time, like 60 seconds per room. To break into the pay chest, they have to do a channeled activity in the chest room for 10 minutes.

- Objectives need to be evenly placed in each org. This is probably the hardest part based on current city layouts.


Current Objective Brainstorms:
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Current Obelisks
- Obelisks are moved into the cities and will work only for the members of the city they are in (remove the circle wide benefit). Medium objective points. -Would we just get rid of the current obelisk system? Should we just leave it for another day?

Royalty Mob
- Each city is given (or use an existing) mob that is considered royalty. Stealing this mob has no effect, but is worth a lot of objective points.

Captain of the Guards
- Each city is given a Captain of the Guards. If this mob is kidnapped from your city, your guards will suffer a drop in morale resulting in a 10% increase for hiring and upkeep. Medium objective points.

City Standard
- A standard will be created for each city (flag). If the standard is stolen, mobs in your city will lose morale. This will result in periodic comments on CT and in other places about the state of the city. Medium objective points.

City Leader Item
- Each city has a city leader item. For example, steal the Imperator's crown for your city. High objective points

City Statue
- This increases the morale of your own city when you have stolen it. Decreases guard cost and upkeep by 10%. Medium objective points.

City Storehouse
- Success means they get a portion of city's comms or maybe just damage their production. No objective points.

Champions Trophy
- Stealing this will reduce all arena upkeep and fees by 10%. Not having your own will result in increased fees.

City Planning Mob
- Kidnapping this mob will reduce all house upkeep and fees by 10%. Not having your own will result in increased fees.

Pay Chest
- Steal the upkeep gold needed for guards. Stealing this will not result in guards quitting in the city, it will just lower their morale and result in sarcastic comments on CT about working for free. The gold value in the chest is based on how long it has been since it was last stolen. This is worth zero objective points.


Keep in mind that this is a rough draft of our current ideas. Keep the discussion civil. If you don't like the idea or direction at all, that is fine, just say that.

Post edited by Jeremy on
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Comments

  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 588 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    I like plan B better. Making it the city itself takes away a feeling of cities being safe havens that would be an impetus for the city to have at the very least a good defence force against a full on attack. I also like the idea of there being clear objectives during a raid because it makes the raids more focussed and less "lets kill a bunch of random people standing around because we're bored".

    I'm unsure about the specific objectives, but that's something I'd want to put to a test run or two before I decisively agreed or disagreed with. I think a lot of the devil is in the details, there.

    The only thing I have misgivings about in general is the commodity stores. Buying comms from the cities is already undesirable given the rates people with smelters etc have been selling stuff for in Caanae shops.

    [edit] -

    Still dreaming of the day we can roll up on a city with siege equipment and do a full on siege.

    Just ... putting that out there.
    image
    Ayden
  • UltrixUltrix Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    I'm also a fan of the city option (B). How do we expect personal houses/shops to play into question given certain AoE/ranged effects that could be launched in a "safe room"?

    Also a side note - I would prefer that we ultimately do not call these new things as "monoliths" once released. We already have "monoliths" and calling these new mini-obelisks "monoliths" would be super confusing.
    Anette
  • JeremyJeremy Administrator Posts: 1,121 admin
    Sorry, those are obelisks. Fixing.

  • TydenTyden Member Posts: 50 ✭✭✭
    So we'd be doing away with Magick/AM/Demonic as groups for the current Obelisks and more focus on the cities/orgs instead?
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 588 ✭✭✭
    Ultrix said:

    I'm also a fan of the city option (B). How do we expect personal houses/shops to play into question given certain AoE/ranged effects that could be launched in a "safe room"?

    Also a side note - I would prefer that we ultimately do not call these new things as "monoliths" once released. We already have "monoliths" and calling these new mini-obelisks "monoliths" would be super confusing.

    Could perhaps make it so if they hit the objective related to housing it will eject people from houses and shop storerooms until the conclusion of the raid. Gives the raiders a pressure point to go for if people try to hunker down in a siege house or something.
    image
  • JeremyJeremy Administrator Posts: 1,121 admin
    Tyden said:

    So we'd be doing away with Magick/AM/Demonic as groups for the current Obelisks and more focus on the cities/orgs instead?

    I think so. Not 100% sure on that. Still thinking about things.

  • JeremyJeremy Administrator Posts: 1,121 admin
    Anette said:

    Ultrix said:

    I'm also a fan of the city option (B). How do we expect personal houses/shops to play into question given certain AoE/ranged effects that could be launched in a "safe room"?

    Also a side note - I would prefer that we ultimately do not call these new things as "monoliths" once released. We already have "monoliths" and calling these new mini-obelisks "monoliths" would be super confusing.

    Could perhaps make it so if they hit the objective related to housing it will eject people from houses and shop storerooms until the conclusion of the raid. Gives the raiders a pressure point to go for if people try to hunker down in a siege house or something.
    Right. We will have to think about some of these issues before, during, and after a release.

  • GjarrusGjarrus Member Posts: 219 ✭✭✭
    Option B is nice, but it would require both some layout rework and the mentioned prevention of holding up in a house. For the latter, my suggestion would be to just disable ranged into/out of houses in a raid area. Option A is easier to do, but it'll feel more disconnected. You could mitigate that by sort of co-opting the layouts. I'm not super opposed or in favor of either.

    What about using townes, since their layouts have been less bastardized by siege and contain fewer rooms to begin with? Each could have a slot for an obelisk effect, then you could just delete efficiency and have each towne connect to one obelisk effect. Raid enemy towne obelisk successfully, and you get a bonus to the effect of yours while they lose the effect/get reduced benefit temporarily. If it proves successful, you can try adding in these secondary objectives you mentioned (hitting the comm store, causing havoc {The bomb has been planted!}, raiding the loot box, and kidnapping/killing the towne VIP). You can then tack it into the shard update by creating offensive and defensive raid skills, like SHARD IMPORT CANNON to lay cannonball barrages over the area for a bit or SHARD BARRICADE to put up a sturdier wall that needs to be smacked down while allowing LoS fire from the casting side.

    I like the idea of making it both city-based and open for defensive teamwork if wanted or needed, but that's effectively going to be circle+mercenaries or allow a cross-circle defensive pact. Otherwise, I would just avoid 'pointless' battles like the Outposts where you're fighting to gain ground with the same struggle as sieging the base.

    Will add more if I think of anything.
    AnetteZarim
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 588 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Townes might actually be a good alternative here, but the problem you run in here is the inverse of the city one, where they're almost TOO small and would require expansion, and you still have towne houses as a factor here. It would give townes an actual strategic value though, and the game has struggled for a long time to give townes a meaningful place in the grand scheme of things, so I would be in favour of this.

    [edit]: You could even have it both ways, with perhaps central big objectives in the city, and minor objectives in the townes. This would mean defenders would have to learn to be able to project to their outlying territories and would help reduce the effect of turtling up or bunkering down since if they did the defenders could hit one of the softer targets in the townes. Food for thought!
    image
    Kyraic
  • KyraicKyraic USAMember Posts: 44 ✭✭✭
    Option B is the only workable option. Most people aren't going to care about the battlefield minigame and nobody cares about townes as it is. The only thing people care about is the city so the conflict has to take place inside the city.

    My major problem with this is that you are turning raiding into a thing that is optimally done off-hours to nail the objective. With this system you encourage people to do 4am raids to go after the paychest and the like. It is another conflict system where minimizing conflict becomes the optimal way to maximize rewards.

    I think you would be better off adding in a mechanic where player kills are rewarded. Make the reward scale off of the amount of defenders present somehow. You don't want conflict systems to work in such a way that avoiding conflict becomes the optimal solution.
    AnetteDicene
  • LartusLartus Member Posts: 273 ✭✭✭
    I kind of like the way things are right now. :V
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 588 ✭✭✭
    Kyraic said:

    Option B is the only workable option. Most people aren't going to care about the battlefield minigame and nobody cares about townes as it is. The only thing people care about is the city so the conflict has to take place inside the city.

    They'll care if you give them reason to. They don't have one right now.
    Kyraic said:

    My major problem with this is that you are turning raiding into a thing that is optimally done off-hours to nail the objective. With this system you encourage people to do 4am raids to go after the paychest and the like. It is another conflict system where minimizing conflict becomes the optimal way to maximize rewards.

    This has been the case with raids since The Beginning of Time Itself TM. Penalizing people for going for the weak spot and weak moments is just going to end up in people who don't care to participate because they're being punished for attacking when they have an advantage.
    image
  • VeratyrVeratyr Member Posts: 75 ✭✭
    My thought is, you got alot of really cool ideas, but nothing thats going to give people a huge incentive to participate. I mean, it'll be really fun for the raiders, but 10% here, 10% there, ya its nice...but far from crippling. I think it would be better if the effects were pretty disastrous for a short period, like 24 hours, or maybe up to 72 hours, with a cooldown of like, twice the duration of the effect, to prevent abuse.

    I just think that more people would be motivated to get involved if the effects were really going to hurt for a couple days, versus something thats a minor annoyance at worst for a longer period.
    Anette
  • ZorantizZorantiz Member Posts: 80 ✭✭✭
    if you're going for plan b, i think you should also consider bringing back the ranged meta to imperian. ways to eliminate hood during a raid and or eliminate cds for ranged abilities. the problem with ranged and why we took it out of the meta in the first place had to do with the fact that all ranged was area-wide and there was very little positional planning needed when using them. changing how ranged abilities work so that they are more powerful the closer you are to the target (ie less room walking distance) could be an interesting way to do this. requiring 3 people of the same class to do ranged should not be reintroduced again.
    fifth elephant - terry pratchett
  • ZarimZarim Member, Beta Testers Posts: 85 ✭✭✭
    I like Gjarrus trying to bring townes into it. They are so completely superfluous and have been for so long.

    What if raiding had two stages.

    Stage 1) To open an opportunity to raid a city, you must hit an objective in a towne which will draw out many of city guards in response. This reduces city defenses enough to enable raiding.

    Stage 2) This towne objective would depend on the towne and each one would have a specific benefit to the raiding party when they hit the city.

    This gives defenders either a chance to stop a raid from being completed, or to hunker down and prep and call in reinforcements for the real deal Stage 2.
    AnetteAyden
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭✭
    some hastily written down notes

    potential problem
    risk-reward yield

    potential solution
    three stages; low risk-reward, medium risk-reward, high risk-reward with intermediate rewards for both attacking and defending
    see below benefits (multiple) for breaking up raid into stages...


    potential problem
    disgruntled defenders, unilateral wins

    potential solution
    points for fending off raids; see staging to smoothen out gain/loss for each side (aka, a defending side can lose the raid but win stages and gain some points - incentivised!)


    potential problem
    not enough defenders

    potential solution
    see staging for risk-reward yield
    allow city ruling seats to offer tribute as a way to prematurely terminate a raid
    the raid leader has the opportunity to refuse or accept
    the tribute cost is ranged for each stage and the city-leader can choose how much in that range
    if the raid leader accepts, the raiders gain points (less than for completion) based on stage completion
    if the raid leader refuses, then see TD mechanic; increased bonus to defender NPCs based on the need to defend their home
    broadcast this interaction to the cities involved
    low ongoing gold cost to tributes
    make sure this is reflected in the help files
    HELP STAVENN:
    - stuff -
    Stavenn is a current tribute of Kinsarmar since 78 AD.
    Stavenn currently is paid tribute by Celidon since 101 AD.

    potential problem
    fustercluck of room standing and ranged ****

    potential solution
    disable ranged abilities for raids, no class other than maybe monk loses significant in-room-combat potency but monk is also probably the biggest offender here
    the time pressure is good


    potential problem
    fustercluck of 300 attackers vs 4 defenders, want a more organic fight in the sense that it's a fight rather than a slaughterfest

    potential solution
    see staging for weighting of this: outnumbering defenders by x ratio causes n defender mobiles to enter the room every t seconds, think TD type upgrading as a potential gold sink. these NPCs will be easy to kill but have reasonably high damage output to provide a solution for #1: detracting the attackers from the defender by being a legitimate threat of death, #2: not detract from the importance of the defender's ability to fight by being easily killable - if these NPCs were extremely tanky, they would reduce the importance of the actual defender. Think Legolas NPC jumping down from the roof-tops to give old Mr. X a hand in fighting off Kryss.
    the solution for raiders would be to split and MATCH the size of the defender group(s) to reduce the availability (and thus threat) of these NPCs; therefore the onus for group sizing will be shifted to the defenders (home ground advantage). if the defenders bunch up, they lose the benefit of home ground by losing access or reducing rate of NPCs. if they are outnumbered, they gain the benefit of home ground. if they are equally numbered but split up, they increase the odds of triggering NPCs.

    second potential solution would be to allow for multiple objectives (limit 2-3)
    this allows for splitting of teams (and possible benefit of doing so, but will require timers for objectives; again, see risk-reward system)


    potential problem
    stupid city layouts

    potential solution
    see: risk-reward yield,
    by three-staging it, you can even out the raid
    allow certain sections of the city to be raidable during any given raid instance
    you can shift these sections if you find them to be heavily favouring one side or another


    potential problem
    other missed opportunities

    potential solution
    quest xp, quest xp, quest xp
    make this shiftable during the raid
    - defenders gain quest xp on defending objectives/stages
    - attackers gain (lots of) quest xp on killing TD NPC defenders
    - attackers can LOSE quest xp on dying to TD NPC defenders (see risk-reward)

    shards, shards, shards
    only useable during the initiation phase of the raid
    the raid leader can sacrifice shards to increase the range of tribute required that the defenders will have access to
    - zero-sum game for the whole game, but another point of contestation for the raiders/defenders


    potential problem
    what are the roleplay opportunities to arise from this

    potential solution
    ???


    potential problem
    raiding for the sake of raiding...

    potential solution
    ???


    potential problem
    in the grand scheme of things...

    potential solution
    ???
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    AnetteAyden
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member Posts: 219 ✭✭✭
    The org-based changes should be felt but not breaking, so you need to hit players personally to make them want to choose that activity over others that are more profitable. Quest experience and gold are the best ways to do this, and people engaging in this system deserve it as much as people bashing. Scaling the rewards off of participation would build on Iniar's scaling defender additions to promote people to join even if it's one-sided in player count.

    I like the 3-stage idea for raids, and you can do that with every city or towne pretty easily with gate -> fighting to get to/open up objective -> objective zone. So, a raid on Annona could start off by ramming down the gate, fight across the fields of defenders backed by streaming guards (the TD defenders) with directional block stopping further progress to the objective, then something like the raiders planting a chargebomb that they have to defend for X minutes while it charges (supplanting the raid stoppage timer).

    A pass over ranged abilities would be welcome, as this thread highlights.
    Anette
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    We've got to try something that isn't totally vanilla and safe and our peas never touch our carrots because oh god that would be the END. And I say that with all of the trust that Imperian is not going to become this horrible game where people get to be a raging **** to me pretty much at will just because I try to PK (badly). That said, going to put most of my response in an e-mail on this one.
    GjarrusAnette
  • LartusLartus Member Posts: 273 ✭✭✭
    24 hour raids.
  • JeremyJeremy Administrator Posts: 1,121 admin
    My thoughts. Just going to spew things out here. Sorry if I do not mention your name for bringing it up.

    1. I agree that the battlegrounds/arena idea is not as good. I like the idea of actually raiding a city. Feels more real. Unless something comes up, we will proceed that way.
    2. I like the idea of a three stage system, but I did not really see it fleshed out (maybe I missed that part). I like the 'idea' but my worry is making raids involve too much sitting around with channeled actions. For example, if every raid means you have to break the gate for 10 minutes, then do the next thing for 10 minutes, then the next thing. That might be boring? I'll have to think about that.
    3. The tribute idea is interesting. I was thinking of something like this and I don't mind putting it in. That said, based on how people play this game, then never surrender so I doubt it would get used. I would be pleasantly surprised if it was and it would offer some RP opportunity.
    4. Objective Points for defending. I was planning on doing something for this. Not sure how it would be calculated. Damage and deaths from and delivered to raiders. Repulsing raids. That kinda thing.
    5. Not enough defenders is something that I have thought about it. People like to ignore raids when they know they have no chance. It also sucks to continually lose because you just don't have the numbers to defend, ever. I like the idea of generated guards for cities with few defenders. This may also help with the problem of individuals hanging out in houses they current guards cannot get to. Generated guards would be appearing in the room with them.
    6. Using townes. I don't think people would use the system as much in townes.
    7. Doing Quest XP is a good idea.
    8. More powerful effects for the objectives. The problem is coming up with effects people think are worth it and are not too over the top. I am against any more increases gold drops, xp gain, and that sort of thing. Initially my thought were some simple effects and obelisks being the larger ones. The main benefit is that you can say your city owns another because you have their objectives and they cannot get them back (I understand that is not motivation for everyone). I prefer objectives giving the raiding city a buff, vs debuffing the losing city (gets griefy). This also allows the buffs to stack. If my city captured the statue objective from 4 other cities, I am getting a really awesome bonus, but 4 other cities hate me.
    9. Not against going for multiple objectives at once. I think pulling off 2 or 3 should be super hard though.

    Will post more thoughts soon.




  • JeremyJeremy Administrator Posts: 1,121 admin
    Lartus said:

    24 hour raids.

    No. This is why I want a time limit of about 20 to 30 minutes on them. If you raid 4 to 5 other cities, this is a lot of raiding every day. Not to mention you are probably going to have to defend as well.

    Another thought I just had on the RP front. As this system allows for raiders and defenders from other allied orgs or rogues, this opens up RP opportunities for negotiating with a city to help raid and defend.

    IniarAyden
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 588 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Jeremy said:

    My thoughts. Just going to spew things out here. Sorry if I do not mention your name for bringing it up.

    6. Using townes. I don't think people would use the system as much in townes.

    Just to be clear as to my own intentions in mentioning this, I don't think the townes should be the locus of the dispute, that should remain cities, but I do think townes could make a good side objective to hit if people bunker down, and also could also perhaps offer "consolation prize" objectives to a raiding team that is on the losing end quite definitively, they could trash a town on their way out for instance.

    I remember during the godwars/whatever you call the death of the gods thing the strikes against the towns did a good job of having the defenders mobile. Making defenders mobile is probably a good idea for a variety of reasons, since this makes just sitting in one fortified hardpoint much more difficult.
    Jeremy said:

    Another thought I just had on the RP front. As this system allows for raiders and defenders from other allied orgs or rogues, this opens up RP opportunities for negotiating with a city to help raid and defend.

    I like the idea of some sort of mercenary system where non-city aligned players can be "hired" to help defend the city (edit: or help raid it!) but would be marked as a defender/raider for PVP reasons after it. So they get the benefits of the raid but would also have to deal with the reprecussions and it'd be marked in a systematic way.

    This does open the question of PVP consequences after a raid and what you'd consider appropriate in this regard, which isn't something we've discussed here yet, though, unless I missed it.
    image
  • EtienneEtienne Member Posts: 45 ✭✭✭
    @Jeremy

    I have to admit that this doesn't seem very appealing to me.

    If you enable raids as a daily occurrence, then daily raids will occur. Orgs being forced into combat on a daily basis or having to suffer an organization-wide impact is a miserable mechanic in the current state of Imperian. Add to this that the majority of these interactions, much as happened with obelisks and city raiding before, will occur off hours because they can.

    City leadership is not fun, and the proposed mechanics would put further stress on the players who are engaged in managing it.

    Making sure that you have enough gold in the coffers to start is a chore, in large part because players don't invest in player housing anymore. There are a number of reasons that it isn't purchased. Part of this is that it's a security risk. Instead of having secure player housing, it was decided that you should have to pay 500k per room to prevent most means of travel. That's 5 million gold to secure a house that could be repossessed if you lapse on taxes or decide to move orgs.

    When you could just save for tokens to buy a nontaxable artifact house outside your city and not worry about it, there isn't much contest. We have houses listed at 15k that we can't give away.

    Shops aren't purchased for similar reasons. You can easily just pick up a token shop and plant it in Caanae. It will be guaranteed to get more foot traffic and you won't have to pay any taxes on it.

    Guildhalls don't see much use for the same security reasons, and there hasn't been any momentum on having any benefits to being a guild member since professions were stripped from them.

    My frustration with this is not that it's a PK objective, but that it's a PK objective that isn't supportable by the state of cities/councils right now and will turn into another off-hours grief fest, such as what caused the guards to be adjusted in the first place.

    Nothing is currently stopping anyone from raiding right now. It isn't happening because with the guard changes, you cannot off hours bleed an org dry like you could before.

    Regarding the current objectives listed:
    Captain of the Guards (10% increase for guard hiring/upkeep)
    - It already costs commodities and gold upkeep for guards. It costs additional gold per month if we want to turn on telepaths/archers, and without an actual housing market, there's not a way to make up that deficit other than dumping our personal gold into it repeatedly.

    City Standard (Periodic comments on CT and in other places about the state of the city)
    Pay Chest (Steal the upkeep gold needed for guards. It will lower their morale and result in sarcastic comments)
    - This sounds incredibly annoying. I feel like our tenured players will gag these messages and the main impact will be on novices, who will likely not want to remain on in the org.

    City Storehouse (get a portion of a city's comms or damage production)
    - Trade is already a miserable system. In order to ensure that I have full commodity production in a towne, I have to make sure that someone has run a figurine quest for it in the last 12 days. This means that your average trade minister has to harass 5 different people to fetch the figurine because they can't do it themselves, and each of those five people have to run through a multi-step quest watering strawberries and chopping lumber, because every year they miraculously forget how to farm.

    Once that's done, commodities have to be delivered from townes and then refined at a 10 second balance cost, and you have to make sure that you have all the appropriate math done to keep a profit.

    Champions Trophy (Reduce all arena upkeep and fees by 10%. Not having one results in increased fees).
    - Arenas are rarely used and even with the running of arena events, it's difficult to recover a portion of the cost of keeping it open.

    City Planning Mob (Kidnapping reduces house upkeep/fees by 10%. Not having your own will result in increased fees)
    - For reasons already listed above, player housing usage is at an all-time low.

    Player retention is definitely important, and keeping the PK crowd around and happy is a part of that. There doesn't seem to be much of a happy medium, however, when considering systems that will affect more than one portion of the playerbase.

    I don't believe that Imperian has the population at the moment to support a raiding mechanic like this and not have it become one-sided griefing. It will boil down to who has the most players hitting whatever objective off hours to hurt an org the most, especially given the maluses.

    One of the sources of frustration here is that this is the latest in a list of proposed changes that will be player-sourced by the limited population of the forums and then placed into the game and forgotten about while the next big change is plotted out. We seem to jump from one sweeping idea to the next here, without ever pausing to look back at a system or mechanic and ask if it's viable, engaging, and actually working.

    Increased communication and follow-through would go a long way here, as would careful consideration of the impact of posts made on the forums. It wasn't that long ago that a post was made about deleting/merging organizations for example. It's difficult to remain motivated about what is happening in your organization if you don't know when or even if it's going to be destroyed by the administration, and there hasn't been any follow up on that since it was first posted in August.

    We jumped from that potential straight into new professions, which I won’t argue are great to have. I especially love the different themes for each circle. But rather than pause here and makes sure that the bugs are all wrapped up, the messages are quality versus quantity, etc, we jump headlong into the next big thing. Rinse repeat.
    CaelyaAydenIniar
  • ZerinZerin Member Posts: 31 ✭✭
    I only skimmed Etienne's post because I'm lazy but:

    In regards to gold making: Back in the day city-wide bashing groups used to be a thing, which gives non-PKers a chance to contribute and earn favours/rewards (credits) in this way without actually needing to PK. In my opinion this is a good way to get people communicating with each other. There are also city-credits which the leader owns that can be transferred as unbound and then sold on the market. I'm not sure why you're relying on houses and shops as the sole source of income.

    In regards to "people will raid off hours": It seems to me that many people would find that boring. The rewards to me don't seem so huge that people would solely focus on off-hours raiding, because where is the fun in that?

    In regards to "people can raid now": Well... Technically you can... But why would you? There's no sense of victory in raiding anymore. People would just exit the city, you could sit there for hours killing guards but they will be back at no cost.

    In short, I really, really like this idea.
    AnetteKiskanIniar
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 588 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Etienne said:


    If you enable raids as a daily occurrence, then daily raids will occur. Orgs being forced into combat on a daily basis or having to suffer an organization-wide impact is a miserable mechanic in the current state of Imperian. Add to this that the majority of these interactions, much as happened with obelisks and city raiding before, will occur off hours because they can.

    You've asserted that this is a bad thing, but I don't really think it is. Cities are currently in a state of utter inertia, and people complain they're boring while on the other hand resist attempts to make them, well, not.
    Etienne said:


    When you could just save for tokens to buy a nontaxable artifact house outside your city and not worry about it, there isn't much contest. We have houses listed at 15k that we can't give away.

    The number of times @Lartus has shown up on my doorstep suggests that these aren't the instant security you suggest they are. And they are less secure in the wilderness than they are in the city - unless you don't trust the city administration not to screw you out of a house I guess. This is not an issue if you trust the city leadership.
    Etienne said:


    Shops aren't purchased for similar reasons. You can easily just pick up a token shop and plant it in Caanae. It will be guaranteed to get more foot traffic and you won't have to pay any taxes on it.

    Shops in general have much more supply than demand right now, because frankly, you have a store for each and every single player that is online on average. That is a matter of the present economy and probably outside of the scope of the discussion at hand.

    Insofar as it regards keeping the coffers stocked, well, I have two counterpoints and one question:

    1] If you're raided and being rewarded with finances or financial boons then this incentivizes cities to be proactive themselves in this matter and not just sitting out. There have always been cities and councils that try to bury their head in the sand as regards this, and frankly it's counterproductive to keeping the mud active and participation high. A city should not be able to say to an aggressor "nah, not interested". If they can, then frankly, any city that faces and sort of concerted effort to raid is going to do exactly that, gauranteed.

    2] There's plenty of ways an active city can keep stuff flowing into the coffers by means of their culture ministry. Antioch for instance has had several internal events which have served as means of funding the city coffers. And its one of the ones regarded as not having strong internal roleplaying.

    The query: Why are you relying upon mechanics that are frankly residual income at best for your city revenues? This seems extremely unwise.
    Etienne said:


    My frustration with this is not that it's a PK objective, but that it's a PK objective that isn't supportable by the state of cities/councils right now and will turn into another off-hours grief fest, such as what caused the guards to be adjusted in the first place.

    Nothing is currently stopping anyone from raiding right now. It isn't happening because with the guard changes, you cannot off hours bleed an org dry like you could before.

    What specific part of the changes would change this dynamic?
    Etienne said:


    I don't believe that Imperian has the population at the moment to support a raiding mechanic like this and not have it become one-sided griefing. It will boil down to who has the most players hitting whatever objective off hours to hurt an org the most, especially given the maluses.

    I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I think that it very much does have the population to support this. The problem we're going to run into is certain city that pride themselves as being the venue of certain playerbases and frankly seem to turn their noses up at others. Which, frankly, is no one's problem but their own, if they choose to shun PVP.
    Etienne said:


    One of the sources of frustration here is that this is the latest in a list of proposed changes that will be player-sourcedby the limited population of the forums and then placed into the game and forgotten about while the next big change is plotted out.

    The forums do seem to be the boogeyman of people whom are adverse to a change, which is a sense of personal amusement to me since until getting back involved in the forums by commenting on the housing system after being burnt out on the forums previously I successfully had many changes I lobbied for by way of the BUG, TYPO, and IDEA reporting systems. To the point I'm sure I'm probably annoying @eoghan and the other coders to a certain degree.
    Zerin said:


    In regards to gold making: Back in the day city-wide bashing groups used to be a thing, which gives non-PKers a chance to contribute and earn favours/rewards (credits) in this way without actually needing to PK. In my opinion this is a good way to get people communicating with each other. There are also city-credits which the leader owns that can be transferred as unbound and then sold on the market. I'm not sure why you're relying on houses and shops as the sole source of income.

    I very much agree with @Zerin here. This seems like certain organizations have just expected a certain income and taken no or few steps to try something different in the face of slacking income from those certain sources. I definitely remember those rings. Every day they were happening. Give a percentage to the city and split the rest between those present. With the things like wraiths and necropolis bosses being a thing now, as well as the strigoi, this could me even more profitable than it was in the past.

    To return to the topic at hand, the actual raiding system, the reason this doesn't happen now is it is high risk for low reward. We definitely need to be careful not to make it flip flop to low risk for high reward and make it become punitive to cities participating on either the aggressor or defensive end, but many of the problems put forward as something that would only be worsened by a raiding system are frankly well within the city's means to deal with right now.

    [edited for clarity and formatting]
    image
    Etienne
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 696 ✭✭✭✭
    Not really any concrete thoughts yet, but:

    Its not possible to raid at the moment. Its not been possible to raid a city with a competent person online for years (unless you're willing to throw like 15 people into a meat grinder over and over to kill guards over time) - that's why raids never happen when there's a competent person online. One person ducking in to snipe a kill, sure, but personally I don't consider that a raid.

    That said, I do agree with Etienne that you really need a way to not make this an off hours fest. The current obelisk system is boring for most people who sit around for the hour, but they'll do it because the bonus is worth avoiding the risk of losing the engagement. On the flip side, if its in defenders best interest not to fight, they won't fight either. So tough problem to solve.

    Definitely think if you go with this solution 2 is better - I feel like sandboxing away conflicts in their own little instance or whatever makes them feel way less engaging/relevant.

    No real thoughts on the overarching system yet though.
    AnetteKiskanIniar
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 161 ✭✭
    edited October 2016
    I got so ninja'd.
    AnetteIniar
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 588 ✭✭✭
    Kiskan said:

    Just as a "where we are right now" sort of comment, I'm not sure ANYONE could raid at the moment (actually raid, not just "lol, I got in the city") - because I am not totally sure, but we actually might have the strongest city defs/guards of any game. They're certainly very very very strong.

    First, you need Septus (mad skills, but also just sheer mechanics - i.e. several rare auction artifacts in addition to L3 everything). Then, you need at least a few artifact titans of Julesian/Khizan/Cyr level tankiness.

    And yeah, it's not just that the guards reset, the guards reset FAST. I think it was two hours? Super not worth it.

    If that's not completely correct I am sure Septus or someone will address it, but I feel like that's sort of where we are currently.

    I'm kind of tempted to get together a group just for SCIENCE! purposes to see how hard it is, but I honestly doubt I could get enough people to have anywheres near a viable chance.
    image
    Kiskan
  • LartusLartus Member Posts: 273 ✭✭✭
    Was being flippant about the 24 hour raiding thing. In midkemia if you raided a city, the standard at the time was 1 hour to do whatever damage you wanted and then a 24 hour cool down afterwards. You couldn't come in raid for a couple minutes, come back an hour later and raid for a couple more minutes. It was just a simple 1 hour start to finish. There were no mechanics involved with this type of raid but generally if you went over the 1 hour limit, the defenders could issue for raiding too long.

    Also to add, we did have three kinds of special raids that required siege status, similar to your generator status here. For 100% siege status you could do one of the following: Mayhem, relic hunt, and king of the hill. These lasted 1 hour and had rewards for them. The one I mentioned in the above paragraph was a non-mechanical raid.

    1) The Mayhem raid: kill a specific percentage of the guards. I think 60%

    2) Relic: Drag a relic that appeared 15 rooms away from the gate of the city being raided. You couldn't use stealth skills to move the thing, you were exposed and had to deal with guards and adventurers

    3) king: Stand in one spot for 30 minutes to claim victory.

    What were the rewards for winning?

    1) Mayhem: Gold per guard killed.

    2) Relic: an item which you can use to rent an artifact temporarily.

    3) King: forgot, since no city ever did this.

    What were the rewards for defending even if you lose?

    1) Mayhem: Gold to replace guards

    2) relic: also an item to rent an artifact temporarily.

    3) King: unknown.

    What were the consequences of losing as the raider?

    waste of siege status.
    Anette
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