Classleads May 2016

SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 696 ✭✭✭✭
I was told to make this thread so we can all tell each other how wrong we are.
JuranIniarEldreth

Comments

  • JuranJuran OhioMember, Beta Testers Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Classleads are my favorite thing about Imperian that isn't the 4v4. Everyone can yell at me about my Classleads, or ask me for suggestions on theirs.
    Iniar
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    (Bellatores): Septus says, "Ok, so. My maxed out (full l3s) templar dps is 35.92, or that ballpark. That doesn't factor in rebounding/shield. Raises to around 40 dps once I'm stanced. I think that's very respectable dps. Unartefacted standard curse steal plus belial is 34.8 dps. With ignite its 39.4. It bypasses both curseward and shield, and that's not factoring in the belial scaling per affs, prophecy, or danaeus mark. So yeah, I would lean towards that being very extreme."

    (Bellatores): Septus says, "Ok, belial steal with no affs clocks 45 dps if artied."

    This does not include prophecy or danaeus.

    Affliction route is viable and the only reason it is not optimal is because zero affliction steal belial ignited is currently broken. This damage needs to be classleaded down.
    image
  • EldrethEldreth Member, Beta Testers Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭

    While I disagree with both using a baseline reave as your comparison point (as most of a knight's punch comes from the supplemental damage being done with flares/enhancements/etc..there isn't a single person who would categorize Septus' rolling damage as underwhelming) and your casual suggestion that the affliction route is viable without you having much experience in the current meta (Risca is our current aff-centric dude, and would also disagree), I would concur that belial + steal (aka crucio, aka machine gun) has the sort of extreme out-the-gate damage that was an issue with druid several builds back. I don't know the easiest way to fix....simply lopping off 10-15% probably isn't the answer...and unpairing the two (which was probably the doing of Iniar in the first place) means that Belial is now back to being relegated to the finisher from a Cadmus transition. Which is fine (I know Risca disagrees), but the jinx pendulum still hasn't found the equilibrium necessary for this (tl;dr version: aff pressure was weak, jinx was added to make it too strong, jinx was neutered and brought pressure only slightly right of stage 1, last classlead round looked to find sweet spot but Garryn implemented only one of two approvals).

    Wytch isn't really that much fun to play (summoner/dk/diab top it, easy), but the crowd control + linear, ez-button machine gun means you almost feel obligated for big fights where killing more guys faster than the other team is the goal. If you have some ideas beyond, "damage is broken - nerf", which is a wholly unhelpful synopsis of the problem, I am all ears - we got druid fixed because we moved past the "damage is broken - nerf" mentality to actionable changes that made sense.  


    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
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    SeptusMathiausDiceneMenoch
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 696 ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, just for the sake of disclosure my numbers did factor in cleansing/flare. They did not factor enhancements (because those are basically impossible to quantify, and I figured a rough approximation without prophecy/danaeus would probably be around the mark). Curse/knight dps aren't really comparable as mechanics: this was mostly a thought experiment as I wanted to know how the dps actually compared (because reallistically, noone is going to be able to claim my dps is bad). That said, I don't actually have a problem with wytch out-dpsing knight, because wytch arguably doesn't have the frontloaded tank knight does.

    I am also not a fan of the "reduce the damage values" solution, because historically whenever we try that it doesn't actually resolve anything; it just makes people complain less for a short period of time until they pick up steam again. My initial inclination is to say that belial scaling off of affcount is a big culpret of the problem. Stock belial values (as per my testing) are really solid, and I think that's good; damage approaches are more accessible and pretty much a staple for anyone who wants to be more than an afterthought in a standard large team fight at this point. The aff approach being good doesn't justify the damage approach being bad, however.

    I don't have any specific ideas, but I definitely think looking at how it scales is a much better use of time, or perhaps looking at ways to make the damage crank less aggressively; currently its very much a machinegun as Eldreth mentioned, where there's very little respite from the pressure. The comparrison to old druid is a pretty apt one in that regard.

    But yes, let's please not get into the mindset that a good aff approach requires you to suck at damage and vice versa. That's how you end up with hunters.

  • EldrethEldreth Member, Beta Testers Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016

    If I see a difference between current wytch and old druid, it's that the latter was effectively a juggernaut in pretty much every scenario (teams and 1x1). While a wytch could roid up to 22 INT and ez-button someone 1x1 (I have done it against some people), this approach has zero aff pressure, no burst pressure, and is arguably not going to be all that successful against people who can apply aff pressure or otherwise have the wherewithal to disrupt the sustained damage in some fashion. But it just scales so magnificently when thrown with some allies and the linear drawbacks can be hidden. So in my opinion the challenge here boils down more to mitigating their impact in teams which is always a hard thing to build a classlead around. Changing the scaling would make sense, since as you note that already high DPS is independent of any bonus from several other affs being delivered by allies, but the risk is that in a 1x1 setting, the primary wytch path (build aff pressure via Cadmus to flare, transition to belial and burst before affs go away) is also hit. Plus this doesn't address the primary issue that we can set up a 18/19 INT wytch with a collar to be a killing machine with about 5 minutes worth of work (see: Kanthari).

    My gut tells me that the easiest compromise would be to unpair belial + steal (effectively cutting adjusted damage in half on the off-prophesy balances), increase Cadmus flare damage (not previously mentioned but flared Cadmus damage even with a lot of affs is pretty mediocre) so a belial transition isn't necessary (but not to belial levels), slightly reduce belial scaling, and give a 3p jinx cure message. In teams, the wytch loses a lot of DPS when off-prophesy balance, but should be able to make it up long-term with the fact they are probably sticking an aff (in lieu of steal) to help towards scaling. Or it allows a wytch to go the Cadmus rout if they want (affs towards increased damage and they can stay on this path).

    edit: Another consideration is taking away the ability to manually flare the mark - with the artifact and a sub two-second investment I can flare belial at the start of a fight for a sweet damage bonus, and the fact the mark will fade in about 20 seconds is irrelevant as the target is likely dead by that point (and if not? I can reapply mark with no balance loss). Manually flaring marks is generally not something one does during normal fighting conditions anyway.

      

     

    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
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    SeptusIluvDiceneMenoch
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Garryn

    You have commented classlead report #429.
    WARNING: Your input may have exceeded the length which Imperian can process. Some information may have been lost.


    included below:

    classlead 429 comment Better yet; re-repurpose Steal to what was initially requested - a dynamic heal. Please Garryn. I played Wytch back in 2013 and it was already an amazing class. Risca can show you logs of me burning him with 300 damage Cadmus flares even back then. There was no reason to make Steal what it is now. More importantly, there was very little reason for improving Wytch to the point where it is now; jinx, prophesy, prismatic, 15% resists on top of dustcover, +2 con, blink, paralysis break, vitality. Siath/Zith and I always talk about Wytch and how a great class was turned into an overburgeoning class of -lol-. The reason we say this (being the two players who have extensively played Wytch for long periods of time in multiple avenues against multiple types of opponents) is because Wytch already came with 3 MAJOR advantages baked in: speed of attack (swiftcurse lets players react FASTER), prismatic and shield bypass (innate team clutch-class) and rare type damage. These are HUGE advantages, one I really appreciated as a wytch fighter. These things were COMPENSATED by not having on-demand frontloaded burst damage. What we have allowed to happen is repeated cycles of upgrades of a class with amazing innate benefits that not a lot of other classes share, without allowing for a reduction in these innate benefits. You now have a class that can rip things to shreds (fine), but without much counterplay. At the speed of Wytch's attacks, ignorance is almost a non-factor. I really think you should take a long hard look at this class; it has been upgraded with less than careful deliberation and very specifically, the two people who have used this class in more situations than most of the other players agree that this cycle of upgrades has left this once well-balanced, fun class in a place that is quite unpalatable to play - too much damage, too tanky, no longer rewards intelligent play. This is probably one of my biggest disappointments in recent classlead history. Aside from the +con changes and probably jinx, all the subsequent changes have been nearly entirely unnecessary.

    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Iluv
  • SalikSalik Da BurghMember, Beta Testers Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    Iniar, what do you mean by blink? Some of the things that were added I agree with. I can't say I'm familiar with how Wytch used to play, but I see some good things, some useful. Jinx is kinda meh. +Con is really rather critical. Prophesy helps Wytch to stick afflictions to a small degree, though it's rarely used that way. Honestly, Steal as it is now does seem to be a bit over the top, and I wouldn't mind it being changed in one sense or another. It's the main damage route right now, but even in groups I often will go Cadmus (it ignites in no time) -> Belial for damage.

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Super artied mostly Templar derp who has often been first demonic target here... 

    Here is my experience with wytch, along with how I have modified my approach (so far) to survive as best I can (this is in a group setting):

    Eldreth + any unartied DK can often kill me in ~4-5 seconds.  It's that fast.  Because the damage is so good and the attacks go through everything, they almost immediately gate the DK's enhancements, which really can do Alekmanhala level damage, even on me.  If there is no summoner I can safely be using rebounding at least.  But if I try to shield or use prismatic or reflections to slow down the DK, the wytch is still going to be doing amazing damage to me, and I will probably die immediately, so I have learned the hard way to do the best I can with active heals only (I have lots of commits and shard heals set up to kick in fairly high, because burst damage, and I will do hands), and the occasional absorb damage if I have it, since I am terror aspect... Less artied wytch isn't -quite- as fast, but still gates the DK very, very quickly, and wytch, along with several other classes (certainly summoner) pretty much means I am being dumb if I try to use any of the things I'd normally use to try to slow the wielded weapons guys down.  I also know better than to try to leave the room by most normal means, too, yes including my flip boots, which, no matter what Khizan says ("just flip more, Jules" >.>), seem to almost always end in me eating a totem if there are wytches and I am target (I do have an idea I am pretty excited about trying), because there is such an excellent chance of ansuz ticking, or the wytch successfully digging me up from an attempted burrow with his uber balance recovery, and then I will immediately eat the totem the wytch has perma propped for me while he is beating the snot out of me with his not weapons - and which is probably going to hit me whenever I come back anyway, because it will probably remain propped for me while the wytch focuses on killing one of my teammates.   
    Post edited by Jules on
    Iniar
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Report #436
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Submitted by: ---            Status      : Submitted                
    Skillset    : Shamanism      Skillname   : Cadmus
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Problem:
    the basic kill rout for a wytch under normal conditions is to load up on afflictions and switch 
    marks to belial, using burst damage until either the target dies or heals the afflictions (as aff 
    pressure immediately drops off upon the belial switch). This approach is not too dissimilar to 
    hunter approach. In the current meta, the "either/or" approach represented by this tactic is neither 
    fun nor dynamic, and more entertaining offenses resemble diab or bard - the ability to apply decent 
    aff-based damage while working towards a burst level. Ah, you say...wytch already enjoys this by way 
    of ignited cadmus! Sadly, ignited cadmus, which runs about half of what ignited belial does, has 
    significantly underwhelming DPS even with a 5-affliction base. Another byproduct of this damage 
    output is that there is very little incentive to use cadmus-based approaches in team fights. This 
    classlead is asking for nothing but a minor adjustment of cadmus damage as it scales with affs, to 
    make it a viable alternative to the "load up on affs, switch to belial, hope you kill them with 
    burst or start from square 1 when your window allows you another balanceless mark switch
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
    Increase ignited cadmus-based damage per aff (perhaps at 3-4 aff level even) to make it a more 
    viable path without needing to use belial. Note, the increase shouldn't approach belial damage, but 
    perhaps split the difference on current levels.
    Solution #2:
    Solution #3:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------













    Not sure if this is troll classlead-diss at bard.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If #415 gets submitted while I'm at work, I just want you all to know that if it gets approved, I will stop playing Imperian.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    JulesOhmEldreth
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I made a boo-boo; apparently basilisks can fly now. Kindly delete/ignore #439 @Garryn.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • EldrethEldreth Member, Beta Testers Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    There should be filters to prevent Iniar and Jules from posting within 3 messages of each other in any given discussion - all we need now to round out the thread apocalypse is something from Lartus.
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
    JulesIniarDiceneMenoch
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    Iniar said:
    If #415 gets submitted while I'm at work, I just want you all to know that if it gets approved, I will stop playing Imperian.


    I actually don't know how useful or useless Lindane is, although I haven't heard much of it being used.  It seems like most of the people who use lots of mandrake affs don't need it though?  If it is sort of useless, I assume it is one of those toxins that got nerfed in the interest of overall balance.  BUT, does a new player (or just one who isn't dialed into the combat scene) know that?  I did laugh when I read 415 (even before you posted it), for two reasons.  This classlead screams that it was written by someone who yes, probably doesn't realize they don't know what they are talking about (the lack of detail and frustrated tone is telling), but who is also likely dealing with the very legit frustration of figuring out what is and isn't useful without plenty of knowledgeable people around to say "don't use Lindane" (if that is the case).  It is not that people who are still "trying to figure it all out" are struggling to suss out what is the most amazing top tier kill route.  They are struggling to figure out what is and isn't totally gd effing worthless, or almost always gd effing worthless, and what they should actually be considering trying to cobble together and USE most of the time.  Because the helps sure aren't going to help.  I mean, I was flat out told never to use dazzle... BUT IT LOOKS SO GOOD IN THAT AB AND I HEARD THE ACHAEANS PWN WITH IT.  There are so many examples like that.  Way back when, something changed with Damnation, I think (I can't find a classlead unfortunately, maybe it was just before things started getting archived) and all of a sudden, I got yelled at for using it (after I'd been using it all the time, because I had been told to), which was incredibly confusing to me at the time, because I don't think I was as aware of classleads then.  I mean, I knew they existed, but at the time they were just this really big scary list of things that I didn't really know how to interact with, and that I knew was timeline based anyway (the timeline based part can still make it hard to piece together an ability's "history" and current usefulness).  
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The big problem that you have with things like that, Jules, is that you don't think things through properly.

    Let's use Dazzle as an example.

    Question #1: What is my goal? What are we trying to accomplish? How are we trying to kill them? Are we running longsword Templar? Pushing for a damage kill with axes and reave? 

    Question #2: What does this ability do? Well, Dazzle takes 3.38-3.95(diadem depending) seconds of equilbrium to do confusion and dizziness. C

    Question #3: Does this ability work towards my goal? Well, it does zero damage and reave-knight doesn't care about afflictions at all. So in that case, this is a resounding no; sacrificing damage for afflictions is never a choice that works out for the axeknight. For longsword Templar, though? Well, it's slower than DSL and does no damage or bleeding, and it does dizziness and confusion. Dizziness I could get from Lindane on a DSL if I wanted it, so scratch that. Confusion? It's focusable and we neither hinder nor prevent focus cures. So, for longsword knights, the answer is also no. The only thing it gives you that you can't get anywhere else is confusion, and while confusion is powerful, it's also not an affliction that a Templar can defend; you can't bury it under other affs or effectively prevent them from curing it.

    So, should you use Dazzle? It's pretty clear that the answer here is "no". Dazzle does not provide any effective progress to your goals, so it is not worth using.

    If you go over any given ability like this it is usually pretty easy to determine whether or not that ability is worth using. 

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    It's true.  Something like Dazzle at least, I could probably think about better these days, yes, because of your answer to question two.  It's one of the more clearcut examples of a "probably almost always useless" ability, because it has such a high cost (in terms of time in a fight) and so little payoff, but honestly... no, I did not think things through properly.  I had no idea how to and I wasn't one of those people who "just got it".  That is one of my points.  And many, many things are far finer points of investment vs. reward than Dazzle.  Those I definitely still struggle with.  I am just saying, part of why you get "funny" classleads like 415 is because people try to figure things out for themselves (badly, and with very little documentation to help them start thinking about it correctly), so as classleads get implemented, it would be really nice if they were well documented - in the actual helps and affliction shows and AB files where players will look first.
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 696 ✭✭✭✭

    Lindane is not one of the alpha toxins.

    Dizziness however is not a bad affliction, and imo it fills its role very well.

    Unfocusable mandrake afflictions are very problematic, because they both buffer impatience (which is the current major benefit to mandrakes for an afflictor) and also are not trivially clearable if you do manage to cure impatience (no focus while off herb bal). This is a problem because it turns the scenario into a sum 0 gain. That wouldn't be hugely problematic for a new affliction, because you can balance around that affliction being an impatience buffer and not being clearable via focus (i.e. you don't give it to impatience profs or make it have pre requirements of some kind). That ship has long since sailed for dizziness however. Off the top of my head, this would be a massive buff to shamanism inhibit, outrider, hunter (in theory), any dual aff class (knight, berserker, diab(for now), ranger, assassin/renegade etc), probably others that I'm not immediately thinking of. Note that avidya became an orphine cure when it became unfocusable. There's good reason for that.

    There's also the fact that dizziness would be secondary hinder. Basically all classes that would use it already have strong primary hindering abilities, so the weaker secondary hinder effect is entirely justified and appropriate.

    Of course, you could suggest moving it off mandrake onto something else, but at that point I think its getting into really needing a solid justification teritory.

    JulesMenoch
  • LartusLartus Member Posts: 264 ✭✭✭
    Leprosy will be a thing. Next classlead :D
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