Champions/Boneyards

SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 695 ✭✭✭✭

So now that we've had the system for a while and the big issue about being able to guard boneyards with siege is resolved, I figured I'd post some feedback. I think there are a few big issues, but nothing too problematic with the underlying mechanics.

Firstly, could we make bones decay outside of a boneyard? Currently people are just stashing their bones in shops and stuff (presumably until they can amass enough for building/pushing to 100 all at once). This seems pretty counter to the intent of the system. I assume this is to allow people to work towards a boneyard over time, and not have half their bones decay on them when they're just getting near. Maybe a better thing to do here would be to drop the bones to build a boneyard to 5, and set the decay time to 15 rl days or something. Bones in a boneyard could just not decay. A lower buy in is probably a good thing in general, which leads me onto my second concern.

A hundred bones is a pretty crazy amount. I get that its meant to be very difficult, but given that these are contestable pk objectives, we're probably talking months before we see one come to fruition, best case. There just aren't enough champions for a hundred bones to be a reallistic target. You could cut this down to 50 and it'd still be very, very hard if someone had a mind to stop you reaching that goal. I get the impression from most people that they don't really like making a push to finish a boneyard, because its kind of unreallistic even if you're absolutely dead set on it currently.

The only way this is actually reallistically doable is actually one of my biggest issues with the system. You can just farm allied champions back and forth endlessly to produce  90% of your bones. This is kind of lame and is probably going to become the go to long term; could we make it so a single person's corpse can only produce a bone every hour? (Or barring that, make it so you can't remove bones from people in your circle, which might help mitigate slightly.)

Finally, I assume this is a design decision, but I'm just wondering if this could get revisited: could we have some way to locate all boneyards? Even if it is something that burns like 100 shards/a champion bone from our boneyard/whatever, searching threw every room in the game to find the most obscure location someone can find to build their boneyard in is kind of bleh.

But overall, I really like the system and think it should be awesome once people start getting more invested in it.

Comments

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's my big thing: Could incendiary arrow kills against champions result in a bone being salvagable from the pieces or something? Ranger is perhaps unique in that it's the only class in the game designed around a primary kill that doesn't leave an intact body and so collecting bones as a ranger is stupidly difficult.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Septus said:

    A hundred bones is a pretty crazy amount. I get that its meant to be very difficult, but given that these are contestable pk objectives, we're probably talking months before we see one come to fruition, best case. There just aren't enough champions for a hundred bones to be a reallistic target. You could cut this down to 50 and it'd still be very, very hard if someone had a mind to stop you reaching that goal. I get the impression from most people that they don't really like making a push to finish a boneyard, because its kind of unreallistic even if you're absolutely dead set on it currently.

    IMO the big reason the cost needs to be lowered is that right now the cost is so high that nobody's going to be willing to take any risks with this. It's a conflict system that's so costly to engage in that people are going to go out of their way to minimize the role that conflict plays in it. As a prime example of that, we have Eldreth and Septus, two of the least conflict-averse players in the game, both were putting their boneyards on their siegelines simply because boneyards cost so much that it's not worthwhile to build them in a more strategic location.

    It's sort of like player obelisks in that you have a conflict system where the smart play is to minimize the amount of conflict involved.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • EldrethEldreth Member, Beta Testers Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2016
    Khizan said:
     As a prime example of that, we have Eldreth and Septus, two of the least conflict-averse players in the game, both were putting their boneyards on their siegelines simply because boneyards cost so much that it's not worthwhile to build them in a more strategic location.

    And let me tell you what a nice surprise it was to find out last night that indeed, cannons still will crush your face if you look at them wrong from outside city limits :(


    edit: There are probably other boneyards, but the current boneyard lanscape is something like:
    - Septus has a boneyard at the end of a siegeline, full of fellow AM bones
    - Eldreth has a boneyard at the end of a siegeline, with no bones, because demonic moved them to non-decay rooms rather than have Iniar pull a Sani and just waste siege for hours on end.
    - Other bones across three circles probably residing in non-decay rooms

    Pretty sure this wasn't the intended effect.
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
    Septus
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    Septus' boneyard looks the way it does because boneyards were completely new and no one knew even basic mechanics like, "do I get a notification when Jules tries to steal one of my bones and I am offline, and does it give me a name?".  The fact that it hasn't grown much (or almost any), and that Eldreth also has few/no bones either means we might never get to see Mr. Pebbles again unless something changes.  
  • TheophilusTheophilus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 635 ✭✭✭✭
    The fact that I can't harvest bones because my kill route obliterates people is kind of dumb..

    Especially since becoming a Champion only gives double exp, which is useless for me as an Aspect.
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 695 ✭✭✭✭
    Another thing that I've noticed is that the boneyard owner can remove bones at no cooldown (no one per hour thing). This is problematic because I can just empty my boneyard and stash the bones somewhere more secure (which I've done). You probably shouldn't be able to do that, makes dodging attackers super easy since I can just clean out my yard when its on cooldown from their harvest.
  • EldrethEldreth Member, Beta Testers Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    While it is good to highlight these sorts of things, it is also disingenuous to do so only after you've personally exploited it to remove 15-20 bones if there is belief it is a bug.
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 695 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm pretty sure its a design decision, not a bug. That's the kind of thing I'm pretty sure would've had to be made an exception since it works for nonowner getting of bones just fine.

    Its just one that probably should not work that way.


  • EldrethEldreth Member, Beta Testers Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    Then changing the word bug to problem in my statement keeps its original intent intact.
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 695 ✭✭✭✭
    Sure. I freely admit I have no interest in setting a timer to ensure I only get a bone every hour if the system does not enforce that, in a case where it seems almost certainly that its intended that you're meant to be able to chain get the bones as the boneyard owner.
  • DecDec Member, Immortal Posts: 118 mod
    A few points --

    Owners were supposed to bypass the cool down.  Their boneyards were supposed to be destroyed if they took too many bones out, however.  This should now be fixed.  

    Bones also now decay outside of boneyards.  They should decay anywhere else.  
    Septus
  • KabaalKabaal Member Posts: 303 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2016
    Can Champion be made a toggle thing? Put me back on apprentice on death, sure, but there's often no time to go to the root or altar (safely) when the fight is real.
    E: Also, people (read: me) are lazy and will be more likely to participate in it! Win!

  • KabaalKabaal Member Posts: 303 ✭✭✭
    Also! It's a bit odd that there's no way for PK to result in a champion unless an actual Champion is involved. An apprentice who does something like go on an n (3-5?) apprentice kill streak should pop a champion.

    DiceneArio
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2016
    The current champion system does not work because it has a two tiered opt-in system.

    Currently, the buy-in begins with the player choosing to become an apprentice champion. From there the player can opt to stagnate permanently unless by accident they cross the bashing threshold or kill another champion (usually by accident).

    This creates an inadequate supply of champions.

    The buy-in should happen once; the choice of becoming an apprentice champion should lead towards inexorable crowning as a champion; likewise, delays towards champion-hood should result in degradation of progress to remove stagnation. Sadly, this would be open to the similar abuse of permanent stagnation. This means the creation of a one-tailed progression tree; that is to say, a unidirectional linearity is accepted towards progression of champion-hood but a dichotomy accepted for loss of apprentice-hood.

    Here is my proposal;
     - any Aspect will be allowed to become a Champion of their Aspect type
     - any apprentice Champion be allowed to relax their apprentice-hood; they will lose all progress towards Champion-hood
     - apprentice Champions experience a minor bonus for their increased risk of progression towards Champion-hood:
    + 50% exp gains
    + 10% reserve regeneration rate
     - apprentice Champions inexorably progress towards full Champion-hood after 14 days
     - apprentice Champions can accelerate their progress towards full Champion-hood by the following measures:
    slaying undead (current)
    slaying demons (current)
    killing a Champion (current)
    killing other apprentice Champions, +20% progress to full Champion-hood (proposed)
    generic player killing, +5% progress to full Champion-hood (proposed)
    harvesting shards (proposed)
    generic bashing, 0.4 x current rate of progress for Undead/Demons

    Champions who lose full Champion-hood should revert automatically to apprentice Champions; should they decide they have had enough for a while, they may then opt to relax their apprenticeship.

    More importantly, there needs to a greater incentive to hold Champion-hood. This incentive needs to have a u-shaped curve. On the left hand side, a perceivably greater PvE bonus, to entice non-PvPers to generate a base rate of Champion-hood; on the right hand side, a perceivably greater PvP bragging rights to generate a greater incentive to hold on to Champion-hood against other PvPers. This system would offer benefits to both types of players, with greater enticement for PvE-rs at lower ranks, and enticement for PvP-ers at higher ranks.

    Proposal:
     - a seven-tiered Champion system
     - proposed benefits that follow a u-shaped pattern:
    Champion Level 1: once gained, this rank reduces the number of blueshards required to transmute a redshard by 2, for at least the next 24 hours regardless of whether the person continues to hold Champion status
    Champion Level 2: once gained, this rank increases the longevity of smithing items by a further +20%, for at least the next 24 hours regardless of whether the person continues to hold Champion status
    Champion Level 3: once gained, this rank increases the rate of reserve regeneration by a further +10%, for at least the next 4 hours regardless of whether the person continues to hold Champion status
    Champion Level 4: once gained, this rank increases sacrificed faith by a further +50%, for at least the next 12 hours regardless of whether the person continues to hold Champion status
    Champion Level 5: only while held, this rank grants a -15% reduction in faith cost for rituals
    Champion Level 6: only while held, this rank grants an additional 2 shouts per hour, with a custom Champion shout
    Champion Level 7: only while held, this rank grants a QHONOR that ranks both the number of times this status is held, and the longest duration
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    CaelyaTheophilusArioKristos
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