Clueless

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  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2013
    It's not really that big of an issue. The big problem is communicating to newer players (or less experienced players) that there are very viable options to bypass water rooms. There's just so much basic information you have to cram down someone's throat, it's hard to make an easy to read "you need to know all this ****" help file.
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  • SarciossisSarciossis Member Posts: 163 ✭✭✭
    I know it benefits caravans, but Iunno about regular walking. I just path find. :P
  • NevoreNevore Member Posts: 20
    No, it's not a big issue at all. It is one that I didn't have a full understanding of however, hence the question.

    Probably doesn't effect walking, no, but while I'm pathing around rivers while caravanning I might as well see if it's better to stay to the roads in question as well.
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've never gotten into the financial aspect of being city leader before, so this might just be a fairly derp question. How do cities generate gold for themselves, if they do at all? Ithaqua's been losing gold on the day to day expenses, and I'm trying to figure out how to correct that. 
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • KeldoranKeldoran Member Posts: 7
    Cities don't have that many ways to generate gold.  They generate gold by the Ministry of Trade (theoretically, very difficult to do lately) donations via citizens, taxes for shops, and houses.  Arena Events can make a marginal amount of gold (as you can charge for duels), some cities sell the credits the the leader gets for gold to help bolster the coffers.

    I'm sure there are other ways, but most of the ways are "people give it gold"

    You'd probably be better served by trying to decrease expenses if possible.
    Ahkan
  • JuranJuran OhioMember, Beta Testers Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It doesn't help that they seem to intentionally do things that ruin any chance cities have to make money. Duplicate has killed trade even more than it already was, and any city running caravans at this point for more than feeding guards is foolish.
    LionasKeldoran
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm also running some to bring in the libations comms that were moved into the city comm system and cannot be duped
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Eh, people have been lamenting how Duplicate was the boom, headshot to trade for a few weeks now. A well deserved head shot, to be honest. Between the two, I'd rather have to bash and duplicate commodities 1000 at a time than run the RNG roulette that was the production system. Lucky for the roulette wheel, some things are immune to duping, so it can continue dragging **** and frustrating city leaders for no reason.


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    Juran
  • JuranJuran OhioMember, Beta Testers Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Want to compete economically? Pick this one group for your sect, it's now mandatory.

    When duplicate was proposed, I expected to see someone able to copy 10 cuhpfehr for the 250 demons roughly it costs to get max faith. When I saw Katalina copy 1000, I didn't really even know what to say.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    I said awesome.   The economy system did nothing but produce infinite amounts of commodities that no one was using. The system was built to motivate you to run caravans for advancement, for achievements and for experience. Unfortunately, the next step didn't fit the rest of the system for a lot of reasons. The big one being that there was no demand. Ever. At all. Even with the hilarity of bad approvers, we couldn't fabricate enough demand for a single commodity. Enter your economy hemorrhaging gold. You either shut off the system or you bled a little every day for the end of time. Eventually economics was going to roll in and blood freeze your ****. Part of the responsibility is on the Administration. The rest of it is on city leaders for running umpteen million caravans of stuff no one needed for quest xp and a little bit of gold.

    You can disagree all you want, but basing an economy off of a random number generator is silly. Defending the current economy if worse. Imagine playing Command and Conquer with tiberium having a 50% chance of making play dough. Pick your rts and apply the metaphor. It sucks. If you really want to build a resource gathering economy that is going to form the infrastructure for a city, you're going to have to really dig in and make it worth while. No more of this I turn in one load of tiberium and it has a 1/3 chance to produce play dough, kool-aid and snickers bars and a 1/8 chance to produce tiberium. Guess what I need to build my stealth tanks? Mother effin' tiberium! Kanthari already has enough play dough to eat to last him a life time. Until such a time that we man up and revisit the economy and it becomes more practical and less death of a thousand cuts, I'll take the more useful of two stupids (That's Duplicate, btw).

    P.S: No one is making you compete economically. That's a personal/ego thing. You have two sects. Share the load between Economic Powerhouse and Trollking.
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  • JuranJuran OhioMember, Beta Testers Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Except now cities have even less ability to earn their own gold, because that role is being distributed through sects.

    Protection costs are the same, food usage is the same, refining costs are the same - but city refining is producing materials for gold that can't possibly compete with 'free'.
    Bathan
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My concern is that, I'd like to see cities be able to at least produce enough wealth to become somewhat sustainable. The notion that player cities have to survive based on player donations is absurd to me. That's obviously not something that'll be fixed with any kind of immediacy but it'd be nice if some ideas were kicked around. I mean, duplicate's beyond dumb but, and I wouldn't expect any less from the player base, the people using it are basically saying 'this is my particular brand of stupid and I enjoy it.' It shouldn't be a factor in city economy. 
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Like you said, you can shut off production. You should shut off production. That way, you make money off of the initial purchase of 1000 cuhpfehr and don't lose out on the refining costs of not producing cuhpfehr from the 1000 ore Antioch_alt15 ran to get level 50.

    ***
    What you're really trying to argue here is that duplicate commodities are devaluing city commodities, which would be a fair assessment if city commodities weren't already devalued to an extreme. I mean really, what's .01 of .0001?

    "Yeah. Refining rates are fine, the just set the price of the  resulting commodities. If we're not competing with anyone but other  cities all using the same structure, there's nothing wrong with  production rates. Lowering comm costs causes more headaches than it fixes, there are better ways to get people to buy commodities."

    You're finally realizing your error here. There are not good ways to get people to buy commodities. Which is why the commodities are already devalued. Any cost I'm paying upfront to the city is a false bottleneck from the trade minister. Production rates are also far from good. See the command and conquer tiberium metaphor earlier. There's no way to alter commitment of production. What if I don't want to make play dough? Why am I forced to eat 8 units of play dough for every tiberium? All it leads to is to a resource stockpile that exists only to make itself less valuable.

    I'm not going to disagree with you that duplicate is silly. That being said, it's not less silly than the game economy. Though, to be honest, had you capitalized on duplicate first for the first three weeks of this, I have a nagging suspicion we'd be on opposite sides of this discussion. :P
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  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bathan said:
    My concern is that, I'd like to see cities be able to at least produce enough wealth to become somewhat sustainable. The notion that player cities have to survive based on player donations is absurd to me. That's obviously not something that'll be fixed with any kind of immediacy but it'd be nice if some ideas were kicked around. I mean, duplicate's beyond dumb but, and I wouldn't expect any less from the player base, the people using it are basically saying 'this is my particular brand of stupid and I enjoy it.' It shouldn't be a factor in city economy. 
    Your city economy is already ****. It was shitty two years ago when Kayden tried to fix it. Lionas picked up on it a year or so ago and has been fighting a losing battle against the death of a thousand cuts. In a grossly over simplified example, you had 1000 units of wood coming in and you only had 2 units of wood going out. Now apply that simple model to every commodity in the game and multiply it by days, weeks, years. The price never changed and the pay out for wood (commodity) never changed (why would it). Your production rates are fixed in RNG land and you can't adjust them. You can't tell your refinery, "You're drunk wood, go home." It's either on or off. What's worse, is you have things like ore that have multiple outcomes based on RNG-land. While you're not producing what you want, you're over producing what you don't want. You couldn't change this. You were eating the refining cost for **** you didn't want to make anyways. To make it somehow worse,  that extra had nowhere to go but your broke **** economy. You know what you did with the super surplus? Nothing.

    Duplicate is broken. Duplicate is dumb. People said this on the 'sect ritual idea' thread. Diablo was a good reason why duping was bad. However, we're stuck with dupe right now. What you can (and should) do is shut down your caravans which will shut down your refining costs. You then duplicate whatever you need. Then you can do what Aleutia and Lionas do (after your 'bro' jacked their commodities to feel cool) you sell the commodities back to Khandava and donate the money you made. Net loss: 0. Net gain: AWESOME.

    We've all power gamed Imperian for years. Some of us should stop acting like it's suddenly some kind of world shattering tragedy (because we didn't find it first.)
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  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    EDIT: Nevermind.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • JuranJuran OhioMember, Beta Testers Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ahkan said:
    I'm not going to disagree with you that duplicate is silly. That being said, it's not less silly than the game economy. Though, to be honest, had you capitalized on duplicate first for the first three weeks of this, I have a nagging suspicion we'd be on opposite sides of this discussion. :P
    I have been nothing if not consistent in my defense of the in game economy.
    Ahkan
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doesn't really matter as it isn't very relevant to the topic at hand. We can just chalk it up to agree to disagree with no method of resolution available.

    Economy is broke. Trufax.
    Dupe is broke. Trufax.
    One problem is greater than the other (it's not dupe.)
    Garryn already said the problem(s) will be(were) addressed. 

    Everybody wins! Except Lionas. Which I'm ok with.
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  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    A dark, razor-sharp oyster opens a gash in your arm with a skillful blow.
    Damage Taken: 20 blunt (raw damage: 30)

    What? What even happened here? Is my character just so pants-on-head stupid that she stabbed herself with an oyster?
    LionasSarciossisKhizanOlanre
  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    Is there a better way to move guards than ordering each one individually? Wasn't there something sometime that let you move them all at once?
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You could move squads of army-type guard-things during the terrible pseudo-war system. They weren't guards, though.

    You can move groups in one prompt using a separator to stack the commands, but you still have to order each one.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    All right, so I still need to make an alias to individually move each one by number? Good to know.
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Abigail said:
    All right, so I still need to make an alias to individually move each one by number? Good to know.
    Correct. You can order them generically (order guard...), but that will fail as soon as you hit one manning siege.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Lionas said:
    Correct. You can order them generically (order guard...), but that will fail as soon as you hit one manning siege.
    So it'd be a bit easier to just have different guard types for manning siege than guardrushing/clotting, so you could just, say, spam ORDER KNIGHT MOVE N and ORDER MAGE MOVE N if you don't have guard ordering aliases compiled.
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Abigail said:
    Lionas said:
    Correct. You can order them generically (order guard...), but that will fail as soon as you hit one manning siege.
    So it'd be a bit easier to just have different guard types for manning siege than guardrushing/clotting, so you could just, say, spam ORDER KNIGHT MOVE N and ORDER MAGE MOVE N if you don't have guard ordering aliases compiled.
    That's one option. Generally, you'll want guard clots of different makeup to take advantage of different abilities - a certain number of istani for nonphysical damage and web, a certain number of knights for their higher damage and guarantee of damaging hits (istani can all web at once, doing no damage), etc.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    I do understand the function of Istani
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    After your complaints about impaling npcs, I'd hope so :P
    image
    MenochAzefel
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <eb><db>
    You already possess mental equilibrium.
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <eb><db>
    Your aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
    You have lost the anti-weapon field defence.
    [SUMMONED ENTS!]
    Equilibrium Taken: 12.20s
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <-b><db>
    You take a long drag off your pipe, filling your lungs with linseed smoke.(1)
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <-b><db>
    You have recovered your breath and can smoke once more.
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <-b><db>
    No activity.
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <-b><db>
    You take a long drag off your pipe, filling your lungs with linseed smoke.(0)
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <-b><db>
    (Darin):(Outrfited: 1 linseed)(508)
    ==========QUEUE:Put linseed in 203612==========
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <-b><db>
    *********************************[ Pipe List ]*********************************
    Pipe                 Herb                 Puffs      Months Left     
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    pipe203276           laurel               10         147
    pipe203443           lovage               10         131
    pipe203612           (empty)              (none)     147
    *******************************************************************************
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <-b><db>
    You have recovered your breath and can smoke once more.
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <-b><db>
    #############EQUILIBRIUM#############
    You fill your pipe with a linseed.
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <eb><db>
    ((((((((((PIPES LIT PIPES LIT))))))))))
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <eb><db>
    You feel an aura of rebounding surround you.
    You have gained the anti-weapon field defence.
    H:418(100%) M:404(96%) E:1990 X:46.60 <eb><db>

    So is there a reason why I double puffed there? I've been noticing this happening more and more, and not just when summoning ents. If it's a bug, I'm not even sure how I would phrase it to be fixed. What do you guys make of it?

  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    I've had that happen once, too.
  • AlesudAlesud Member Posts: 77 ✭✭✭
    So, am I getting screwed out of certain awesome things by not joining a sect? I don't really understand what that is up there about duplicating items? I mean, I knew I was missing out on obelisks and also on shard stuff when I was org-less, but I really am kind of refusing to join a sect, right now (because none really catch my fancy, yet, and some RP reasons, too). 
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