Knight Reave (split from I Hate)

GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
This discussion was created from comments split from: I HATE.
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  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    (Ring): Baasche says, "You seen what that change to reave damage looks like?"
    (Ring): Baasche says, "I don't feel like mathing."

    ANNOUNCE NEWS #3100
    Date: 6/18/2015 at 10:04
    From: Garryn
    To  : Everyone
    Subj: Reave (Weaponmastery)

    The damage formula of Reave (Weaponmastery) has been altered a bit. More changes may be coming 
    depending on how this plays out.
     
    Penned by my hand on the 13th of Vita, in the year 79 AM.

    (Ring): You say, "Omg."
    (Ring): You say, "I just bought my axe."
    (Ring): You say, ":(."
    (Ring): You say, ">:[."
    (Ring): You say, "Hate."
    (Ring): You say, "Hate."
    (Ring): You say, "Hate."
    (Ring): You say, "Hate."
    (Ring): You say, "Hate."
    (Ring): You say, "Hate."
    (Ring): You say, "Hate."
    (Ring): You say, "Hate."
    (Ring): You say, "Hate."
    (Ring): You say, "Hate."
    (Ring): Baasche says, "Uh."

    This is @Garryn:

    image
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    Iniar said:
    (Ring): Baasche says, "You seen what that change to reave damage looks like?"
    (Ring): Baasche says, "I don't feel like mathing."

    The damage should be about 16% lower than before.

    Dicene
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    I played with Pithy for about 2 days. :( can I get a refund? :( @Garryn
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    @Kryss That's the problem. I never said anything about winning or losing. I was specifically saying that dying in two rounds of combos is so counter to my enjoyment, that I HAVE to go RG to even live long enough to have fun. I enjoy actually participating, but if I'm in Hunter instead of RG, I don't last long enough to do anything productive. Even Hunter can't prep and fire a kill that fast. If I'm in RG, however, I'm no longer target #1, I'm no longer stuck with such miserable resists, and I can actually use Defend to help lengthen the lives of other members. The increase in the length of time I stay in a fight is so worth it that if I had to play as Mage or Bard for that kind of tank, I'd do it. =/

    @Khizan I know Hunter has never been a super tank, but every class lived much longer than they do now. Fights were longer. That's what happens when everyone isn't doing 300+ damage combos. As a side-effect of not dying so fast, you sip more, eat more toadstool, and have more opportunities to shield, prismatic, shardheal, commit, touch crystal, and escape, all of which further your ability to live. A slight adjustment in damage dealt could(and hopefully will) have a larger impact than what might seem obvious on paper, just for those reasons.

    @Garryn Thanks! I feel like that's going to make a big deal and I love it!
    image
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    Iniar said:
    I played with Pithy for about 2 days. :( can I get a refund? :(
    Drop me a message with the artifact number.
    Iniar
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    edited June 2015
    To elaborate a bit on that Reave change, I've ran the numbers and this is the lowest I'm willing to go - which could mean  that the attack may be a bit too weak now (I doubt that, it's still the second highest damaging attack for Knights), in which case we'll re-tweak again, or maybe there are still problems, in which case we'll need to look at the tankiness of some professions, as I can't feasibly reduce Reave more.

    We'll see.
    Iniar
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    After complaining to Kryss for about an hour (sorry @Kryss), I guess I am curious as to why reave needs to be changed now...

    I mean, it's not like we weren't complaining about the output from day 1. Yet it's been four three months and nothing happened... @Elokia finally says classleads is 1-2 months away so I figure I could at least join in the game for that amount of time after holding back on buying because I thought it would be too ridiculous not to be hotfixed. Four days after I buy it, it gets hotfixed. What changed between then and now? I'm very miffed and I would actually like my money back to be perfectly honest.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    Here's what my best combo (Templar) looks like with no hindering, no affs (and no rebounding) to slow me down.  L1 axe heavy and sharp, (regular) whetstoned.  Realistically, I almost never get into lionstance in a real fight, either.  I removed a lot of cures and sipping and such so it would post.  My understanding is that while Reave is important itself, it's also really important to consider how Reave interacts with RG's, DK's and Templar's enhancements, and that Reave should not be considered in a vacuum, but I am sure other people can address that.  I am swimming in tanking artifacts, so it's true there would be more damage against someone unartied (obviously) but yeah, it tickles, heh.  Also, note that I have some stuff gagged and as you can see I tally the damage I take per combo (I don't handle spam well and am always looking to reduce it).  

    You have lost the anti-weapon field defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Cleansing to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:404/500 M:330/336 B:5 <--> <b> D:96 XP: 74.14% [404/500h/0EQ/0BAL][94DAMAGE]


    Your battleaxe momentum is not sufficient to enter that stance.

    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Healing to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:389/500 M:330/336 B:12 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% [389/500h/0EQ/0BAL][98DAMAGE]

    You have lost the anti-weapon field defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Cleansing to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:398/500 M:336/336 B:10 <--> <b> D:96 XP: 74.14% [398/500h/0EQ/0BAL][100DAMAGE]


    You have recovered balance.
    >>>>>>>>>HAVE LION STANCE HAVE LION STANCE HAVE LION STANCE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    You have gained the weaponmastery lion defence.

    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Cleansing to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:377/500 M:330/336 B:8 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% [377/500h/0EQ/0BAL][113DAMAGE]


    You take a drink of an elixir of health from an ivy-inlaid silver vial.
    Health Gain: 81
    The elixir heals your body.
    H:459/500 M:330/336 B:8 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% [459/500h/0EQ/0BAL][0DAMAGE]

    You have gained the anti-weapon field defence.
    H:459/500 M:325/336 B:2 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% [459/500h/0EQ/0BAL][0DAMAGE]

    Your bandages staunch a good portion of your bleeding.
    H:458/500 M:325/336 B:1 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% [458/500h/0EQ/0BAL][0DAMAGE]



    Health Gain: 5
    H:498/500 M:336/336 B:1 <eb> <db> D:92 XP: 74.14% [498/500h/1EQ/1BAL][0DAMAGE]
    You have lost the anti-weapon field defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Seance to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:379/500 M:336/336 B:7 <--> <b> D:88 XP: 74.14% [379/500h/0EQ/0BAL][118DAMAGE]


    You take a drink of an elixir of health from an ivy-inlaid silver vial.
    Health Gain: 104
    The elixir heals your body.
    H:483/500 M:336/336 B:7 <--> <b> D:88 XP: 74.14% [483/500h/0EQ/0BAL][0DAMAGE]

    You have recovered balance.
    Your battleaxe momentum is not sufficient to enter that stance.
    H:483/500 M:330/336 B:0 <eb> <db> D:88 XP: 74.14% [483/500h/1EQ/1BAL][0DAMAGE]


    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Condemnation to burst into flames 
    and wreathe itself around yourself.
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.

    You have lost the anti-weapon field defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Cleansing to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:371/500 M:335/336 B:7 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% [371/500h/0EQ/0BAL][113DAMAGE]

    Your battleaxe momentum is not sufficient to enter that stance.
    H:471/500 M:330/336 B:0 <eb> <db> D:92 XP: 74.14% [471/500h/1EQ/1BAL][0DAMAGE]

    >>>>>>>>>LOST LION STANCE LOST LION STANCE LOST LION STANCE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    You have lost the weaponmastery lion defence.
    H:471/500 M:330/336 B:0 <eb> <db> D:92 XP: 74.14% [471/500h/1EQ/1BAL][0DAMAGE]
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Piety to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:371/500 M:330/336 B:5 <--> <b> D:88 XP: 74.14% [371/500h/0EQ/0BAL][99DAMAGE]


    Autocuring: sip health
    You take a drink of an elixir of health from an ivy-inlaid silver vial.
    Health Gain: 100
    The elixir heals your body.
    H:472/500 M:330/336 B:5 <--> <b> D:88 XP: 74.14% [472/500h/0EQ/0BAL][0DAMAGE]
    You have gained the anti-weapon field defence.
    H:472/500 M:325/336 B:0 <--> <b> D:88 XP: 74.14% [472/500h/0EQ/0BAL][0DAMAGE]

    Health Gain: 27
    H:500/500 M:335/336 B:0 <e-> <db> D:88 XP: 74.14% [500/500h/1EQ/0BAL][0DAMAGE]


    Your battleaxe momentum is not sufficient to enter that stance.
    H:500/500 M:335/336 B:0 <eb> <db> D:88 XP: 74.14% [500/500h/1EQ/1BAL][0DAMAGE]

    You have lost the anti-weapon field defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Healing to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:400/500 M:335/336 B:6 <--> <b> D:84 XP: 74.14% [400/500h/0EQ/0BAL][98DAMAGE]


    Your bandages staunch a good portion of your bleeding.
    Your wounds cause you to bleed 3 health.
    H:397/500 M:335/336 B:4 <--> <b> D:84 XP: 74.14% [397/500h/0EQ/0BAL][0DAMAGE]


    You have recovered balance.
    Your battleaxe momentum is not sufficient to enter that stance.

    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Condemnation to burst into flames 
    and wreathe itself around yourself.
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:375/500 M:330/336 B:6 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% [375/500h/0EQ/0BAL][101DAMAGE]

    >>>>>>>>>HAVE LION STANCE HAVE LION STANCE HAVE LION STANCE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    You have gained the weaponmastery lion defence.
    H:463/500 M:325/336 B:0 <eb> <db> D:92 XP: 74.14% [463/500h/1EQ/1BAL][0DAMAGE]

    >>>>>>>>>LOST LION STANCE LOST LION STANCE LOST LION STANCE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    You have lost the weaponmastery lion defence.
    Post edited by Jules on
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't think Reave was ever supposed to be used as the only skill you need to win in 1v1, it's just that highly artifacted knights were able to do just that. These changes have mostly just made Templar an even worse 1v1 class than it was before. Lacking any option outside damage is never that great; the profession really needs many things redesigned and their affliction game stepped up.

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, I was asked to post a log, so there it is :D  That said, with afflictions, I do know that other IRE games eventually removed the +2 balance bonus, specifically to address super affliction/hinder speeds that dramatically outpace all curing.  
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    So that it can be broken down more fully (in case people need that for some reason), here's a couple combos untallied for reference.  I chopped out most of the herb cures again:


    You have lost the anti-weapon field defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Damage Taken: 43 cutting, physical (raw damage: 97)
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Damage Taken: 44 cutting, physical (raw damage: 99)
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Piety to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Damage Taken: 23 fire, mental (raw damage: 48)
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:388/500 M:363/363 B:6 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% 
    Autocuring: sip health
    You take a drink of an elixir of health from an ivy-inlaid silver vial.
    Health Gain: 76
    The elixir heals your body.
    H:464/500 M:363/363 B:6 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% 

    Your battleaxe momentum is not sufficient to enter that stance.
    H:464/500 M:363/363 B:0 <eb> <db> D:100 XP: 74.14% 

    Health Gain: 35
    H:499/500 M:363/363 B:0 <eb> <db> D:100 XP: 74.14% 

    You have lost the anti-weapon field defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Damage Taken: 45 cutting, physical (raw damage: 101)
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Damage Taken: 46 cutting, physical (raw damage: 103)
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Healing to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Damage Taken: 20 fire, mental (raw damage: 41)
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:387/500 M:363/363 B:6 <--> <b> D:96 XP: 74.14% 
    Autocuring: sip health
    You take a drink of an elixir of health from an ivy-inlaid silver vial.
    Health Gain: 98
    The elixir heals your body.
    H:485/500 M:363/363 B:6 <--> <b> D:96 XP: 74.14% 


    Your bandages staunch all of your bleeding.
    H:485/500 M:363/363 B:0 <--> <b> D:96 XP: 74.14% 
    You may eat another herb or plant.
    H:485/500 M:363/363 B:0 <--> <b> D:96 XP: 74.14% 

    Health Gain: 14
    The Rite of Revitalization refreshes your body and mind.
    H:500/500 M:363/363 B:0 <e-> <db> D:96 XP: 74.14% 

    Maintaining your momentum against Jules, you fluently flow into the stance of the Lion.
    You have gained the weaponmastery lion defence.
    H:500/500 M:363/363 B:0 <eb> <db> D:96 XP: 74.14% 

    You may eat another herb or plant.
    H:500/500 M:363/363 B:0 <eb> <db> D:96 XP: 74.14% 
    You may drink another healing elixir.
    H:500/500 M:363/363 B:0 <eb> <db> D:96 XP: 74.14% 

    You feel an aura of rebounding surround you.
    You have gained the anti-weapon field defence.
    H:500/500 M:363/363 B:0 <eb> <db> D:96 XP: 74.14% 
    Your aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
    You have lost the anti-weapon field defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Damage Taken: 52 cutting, physical (raw damage: 117)
    Your hearing is suddenly restored.
    You have lost the deaf defence.
    You rub some strychnine on a truesilver battleaxe.
    You reave yourself furiously with a truesilver battleaxe.
    Damage Taken: 52 cutting, physical (raw damage: 117)
    A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
    You are afflicted with sensitivity.
    Balance Taken: 3.98s
    Raising your arms in a beckoning gesture, you cause the Rite of Healing to burst into flames and 
    wreathe itself around yourself.
    Damage Taken: 20 fire, mental (raw damage: 41)
    Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
    Lns added to your EQBAL queue.
    H:374/500 M:363/363 B:7 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% 
    Autocuring: sip health
    You take a drink of an elixir of health from an ivy-inlaid silver vial.
    Health Gain: 101
    The elixir heals your body.
    H:476/500 M:363/363 B:7 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% 

    Health Gain: 23
    H:500/500 M:363/363 B:7 <--> <b> D:92 XP: 74.14% 

    Your battleaxe momentum is not sufficient to enter that stance.
    H:500/500 M:363/363 B:1 <eb> <db> D:100 XP: 74.14% 


    You can no longer sustain your Lion stance.
    You have lost the weaponmastery lion defence.
    H:500/500 M:363/363 B:0 <eb> <db> D:100 XP: 74.14% 
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 696 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not a massive fan, because most of the damage support from runeguard and dk come either from the enhancements or from cure denial/higher than comparable mechanics comboable damage (sowulu). Templars damage is pretty much all built into reave (I am eliminating flare as the comboable +30 damage is pretty much par for the course across the board for knight now).

    This change pretty much still leaves rg as the DoT king (half sip for 2 rounds, eliminate toadstool for a round, etc) and retains dks brutal burst (unartied dk still hits me in my tankiest prof with maxed out mitigation for > 260). Templar doesn't really have a high end viable strategy now (the affliction build is far too slow in today's meta, and emblazing isn't really useable given its conflicting pre requirements.

    I agree something needed to be done about the frontloaded burst, but this leaves templar pretty toothless while leaving dk/rg with pretty much the same potency as previously. I'm pretty religious about trying to make my preferred profession work, but I would not touch templar for single combat and would be pretty reluctant for teams now, and I am maxed out for it.

    Jules
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    I still (obviously) haven't mastered Templar yet, so I am very reluctant to switch to one of my other profs I've picked up, but it sounds like I may really need to.  I am guessing that it would also suck for us to lose more people who can put up Block with both magick and demonic vortexing the hell out of us lately.  And vortex is just basically awesome.  
  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    I think you're exaggerating a little bit there, but if there really is a need to push up reave damage so it's super viable in 1v1 again, at least we should consider moving the damage into the momentum bonus or lionstance. The front-heavy damage was terrible for team fights, and this will lessen some of the pressure to use a knight class to be useful in combat, which is a good thing.
    image
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    Just Reave shouldn't be viable 1v1 though. That's dull. Winning off one skill isn't fun or good design. Templar was simply poorly thought out, their affliction options are sorely lacking and could stand to be increased in strength considerably.

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Garryn

    The problem is not Reave so much as the problem is everything else attached to the Reave. 

    This change to Reave has made Templar Garbage while really not hurting the deathknight and the runeguard. The Deathknight can still pull out 160+ damage out of nothing but soulquench+negate or 240+ damage out of fleshburn+soulquench+negate, without even going into the soulstorm. That's enough damage to make Reave/Reave viable as a burst attack even if the Reave itself did zero damage. Which is fortunate for them, since that's about what Reave does now.

    Runeguards are also sitting pretty right now, tbh. Toadstool denial, shield denial, half-sips, cure denials, and sowulu as a huge unblockable typed damage flare. And that's without even getting into their ability to tie a cool 100+ damage worth of enhancements into the combo pretty easily.

    Templars got the shaft here, though. Flare does garbage damage with Faithroot, and if you choose to consume a rite the damage upgrades from "garbage" to "rubbish. Their passive damage tick is consumed by their full-damage flare as well as their prismatic breaking, and it sometimes hits the mana the opponent has no use for, which is basically the same thing as the tick missing altogether in any kind of 1v1 situation. Emblazing has a combined health and affliction trigger, so that it never gets to go off, and Burning has a 50% health trigger, which is lower than the trigger on any comparable enhancement.  Also, Flare and Emblazing and Burning all do fire damage, which is the most commonly resisted element in the game. 

    The change to Reave should have been a change to basically everything BUT reave.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 696 ✭✭✭✭
    Right, I'm not saying reave needs to be buffed. I'm saying templars affliction options for single combat are practically nonexistent when compared alongside the other knight professions, and both of the other knight professions have still retained said problematic frontloaded burst. Furthermore, reave is still 100% viable (and is still the most potent option) for both dk and rg, for the reasons I specified in the previous post.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kryss said:
    Winning off one skill isn't fun or good design.

    Confusion says hello! 

    That aside, the damage option needs to be viable in 1v1 because there's a very small population of people who have any interest whatsoever in developing affliction combat routines, largely because of the difficulty imposed by coding the tracker. 

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    Hrm, not sure if "I hate" is the best place for this conversation, but ah well.

    Getting rather negative feedback about the Reave change, unless there's some better idea, I'm going to partially revert it, so that the damage is about halfway between the current and the original state.
    Theophilus
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Reave damage itself was fine, it's all the other crap that gets to go along with the Reave that's the huge problem. It's honestly probably an issue for a small beta phase now that we've got a few months of experience with it under our belts.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    Hrm. Yeah, can look at that a bit during the wardancer beta.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2015

    Yeah, but are we talking "We'll do that in 6-8 months" or "We'll do that in a couple weeks"?

    Most of the knight changes would not be hugely complex things. Remove negate, limit enhancement flares to one per DSL, change pithakhan to only hit 1 sip, etc.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • ElokiaElokia Member, Moderator, Immortal Posts: 137 mod
    I want to clear something up, also be sure if you're going to put words in people's mouths, you get it right! 

    This is a direct quote from my post, so please read it correctly. I did not state that we -will- be having classleads in 1-2 months. What I stated was this:

    Classleads may happen in a few months. Garryn will post before he gets them rolling, as he is working on something else at the moment.

    This means, Garryn -may- do classleads in a -few- months. Generally few means at least 3, could mean more. Garryn will decide when those are going to happen, I just stated the fact that they were a few months away, as when said post was made Wardancer was not public knowledge. He will not be doing these classleads till after the revamp (MOST LIKELY-I don't know, depends on how much work HE wants to do). 

    We understand you guys are frustrated, just remember, we have one person who works on balancing classes, and who listens to you guys on both the positive and negative side of all classes. So sometimes things take time, and sometimes it takes a few tries to get it right. Be mindful of those who work to make this game rock for you.
    image
    EldrethMenoch
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    Khizan said:

    Yeah, but are we talking "We'll do that in 6-8 months" or "We'll do that in a couple weeks"?

    Most of the knight changes would not be hugely complex things. Remove negate, limit enhancement flares to one per DSL, change pithakhan to only hit 1 sip, etc.

    Couple weeks. Definitely not 6-8 months.
  • AakrinAakrin Member Posts: 84 ✭✭
    Couple of things to note about buffing knight damage enough to let Templars over-whelm people 1v1 with damage. 
    -First, the current meta isn't really balanced around 1v1, and any damage that works with basically no prep to overwhelm everyone in 1v1, breaks group combat.
    -Second, Templar is far from useless in group combat as a class:
    -- Combined with Defend, they might be the best healers in the game. 
    -- They're also nearly impossible to escape without flippy boots or a band. 
    -- They provide useful area effect with rites. 
    -- They are some of the healthiest, of not the healthiest, folks around (Bloodsworn).
    -- They can reduce the health of a target, with absolutely zero counter (Damnation).
    -- They have two lives, the first of which offers no reward to the killer.
    -- Can resurrect fallen allies instantly.
    -Finally, Reave damage is still near the top of the damage charts, and in group combat will still delete focused targets nearly instantly.


    Templar is perfectly viable with lower damage, as a very very strong support class that dishes out plenty of damage in group combat. Should it gain a decent 1v1 option? Absolutely, is longsword really that bad for them? I have no idea. But i'm 100% on board with fixing a class's lack of 1v1 options. But the fix for no reason at all should require making 4+ OTHER classes completely useless.

    I mean, look at Mage. You guys destroyed firecircle, and mage no longer has any viable serious attack goals. Its also completely destroyed by the current knight damage. (Although I can survive three combos now, thank you Garryn!) Hunter is a functioning proper version of a water mage, but suffers from being soft. It is completely made non-functional by knight damage. I hear Diab has the same issues, but I don't know first hand.

    If templar has 1v1 issues, I hope its looked at and solved, the same as I hope mage is made viable on any level, and hunter is allowed to enter the combat stage once more. Lowering knight damage is healthy for our game. It introduces a broader variety of viable class choice, which supports a broader player base, which is just plain good for everyone.
    Menoch
  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    It sounds like your implication is that you want templars to have more than just longswords but you are under the impression it required the nerfing of 4 classes, then you list one change that was made before the new knight stuff even hit.

    I guess my real question is, what are you talking about dude? @Aakrin
  • OzreasOzreas Member Posts: 175 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    He's saying that in the post-reave world of Imperian, classes that cannot tank reave are functionally irrelevant. The man may be wrong but he is not wholly incoherent, geez.

    (Reave is still dumb and boring.)
    WysriasDicene
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2015
    I swear... I still wish every circle just had exactly the same mechanics.  Like, literally, magick and demonic would have templars, outriders, monks, etc... Or, AM and magick would have summoners, wytches, diabolists... and each circle would just call them something different and put different skins on them, but all of the ablities would be EXACTLY the same :(  I realize it will NEVER happen because it's "boring", but if it did, we could have these discussions from such a different place, because if something was ridiculous, everyone would be feeling the pain.  You'd still have bigger groups, groups with better leaders, but any discussion about whether or not X is OP or just bad game design would come from a place of everyone being on both the dishing out and receiving end of it.  Ugh.  
    Menoch
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is why you listen to people who have played classes across circles and in different playstyles. (Aka me hahahaha)
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    I'd rather have things unbalanced than be a boring three way mirror match.

    Menoch
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