Cults

Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,184 admin
edited October 2012 in Role Playing and Events
So, basic cult discussion in here.

Before you get too worked up about them. Cult are a stepping stone into other things. Cannot give out too much more info then that.

Seeing some interesting ideas started for them.

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Comments

  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    On the one hand,woo, another goldsink. On the other, I just spent millions of gold on one experiment, I don't need to spend more on a stepping stone.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
    AhkanKanthariKari
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please tell me the cults like "Seasons yet again!" and "Eloweth reborn!" aren't going to be approved.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    LionasDelrayneSarriusKari
  • LeisaneLeisane Member Posts: 12 ✭✭
    What Khizan said. I really dislike that cults have already began to spring up that are people clinging to the old. Now, if the incorporation of Seasons, the Arcane, and other philosophies were to continue to study them, worship them, and change toward worship/study of those IDEAS, then I'm fine with it. But simply making cults to enshrine dead gods because people liked how it was before? Defeats the purpose of killing the Gods.
    KatarshDelrayneSarriusKari
  • KatarshKatarsh Member Posts: 47
    Any cult of the Seasons is a dedication to the teachings, precepts, and philosophies of Janus. While it will, of course, incorporate a sense of reverence for Janus and what he did for the world, it is not 'clinging to the old'. Though, RP-wise, it makes perfect sense for people to hold onto what they have lost in some way, shape, or form. However, as any cult of the Seasons will be devoted to the Seasons (over which Janus was Lord), it is primarily devoted to the study and advancement of the lessons inherent in those Seasons.

    Also, because Khizan's attitude is horrendous on this: please tell me anything submitted by him isn't going to be approved. kthxbai.
    LionasDelrayneKhizanSarriusSanaiMkvennerKayden
  • LeisaneLeisane Member Posts: 12 ✭✭
    edited October 2012
    Which is all well and good, if it doesn't simply revolve around the pre-existing teachings, rituals et al. of the now defunct Divine. I looked over one cult which specifically stated it was dedicated to the continued teachings of a particular Deity. That is what I don't like to see, nor wish to see.

    Unless of course the teachings of a Dead God are argued over for a while and eventually used to start wars due to interpretation and grasps for power. That'd be awesome. And hilarious. 
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    My opinion is sort of biased since I didn't have much involvement with the Gods, but I'm all for the opportunity for a completely new, player designed (sort of anyway) garden. Did any of you think that some of the Gods we had were pointless, or didn't need to be there for one reason or another? I certainly did. This is your chance to start your own religion, go out there and make people drink the proverbial kool aid. Sure you can stick to the old faithful of seasons, stars, death, wrath, war, blah, blah, blah. Or you can use your imagination, create a spark of interest, and turn your cult into a circle wide phenomenon.

  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2012
    I think this system is the fast train bound to Fail Town - but that is because of the way players seem to be using it right now, not necessarily anything else. All it is being used for is to enshrine dead gods in hopes that some Entity will take interest/pity/have no good ideas available and become Shallah 2.0 or Janus 2.0 or Eloweth 2.0. Beyond that, I like how open it is - but it feels like the problem of 'a god nobody wants to play has an order with (possibly a lot of) people in it'.. just multipled by how many people have a million gold and an idea they think is fantastic but probably just isn't.

    I preserved Cassiopeia's order accounts and was toying with handing the gold out to everybody now that the order is gone - now I am going to simply hoard it and make a charter for a cult. The problem is that some uppity order member will frown on that because my charter idea likely won't be 'about the Night'. I think every god died for a reason, and that reason was that gods don't make sense in Imperian anymore - especially gods with highly neutral domains. Even if they had fantastic players, they were not domains with any compelling conflict or relevance in Imperian's setting. To make a cult dedicated to 'Seasons' or 'Peace', even if they don't intend to be about worshiping Janus or Shallah specifically, is absolutely missing the point of the reason why gods died.

    Also, when I asked him about the topic of an Entity taking notice 'mechanically' of multiple cults, @Garryn told me not to worry about Entities and to just hang out with the Cult system - I don't know why, but I thought I'd put that information out to all of you:

    Message #3220  Sent By: Garryn          Received On: 10/20/2012/21:02
    "Don't worry about entities for now - all will be revealed in due time."

    What I do like is that this cult system seems to be a way for the people 'up stairs' to see what kind of domains players want their god to have. In a way, I find that sort of cool.

    EDIT: Also, the last time a system had the 'On' switch flicked that had the word 'charter' in it, we got the Animists, Silvari, and many other worthless guilds. Choose wisely.

    OhmDelrayneLalitanaLeisane
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, try and keep an eye for redundancies. We already have/had multiples of one profession in circles, lets not make that mistake twice.

    LalitanaSarrius
  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    Kanna is gonna have a cult of Madness!

    As soon as she finds five other people in the same circle willing to sign a charter. And one million gold. :(
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is no need for that. Madness was not a workable or appropriate domain - granted, Madness' problem was that it was weighed down by a near decade of White Wolf ripoff baggage. The thing is, to make a Madness cult is to ignore why the gods were deleted. Please keep this is mind when you make a cult. Make it something interesting that branches off from Madness - something with space for interpretation and growth that an entity might like to see.
  • AbigailAbigail Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, well, nyuuuuh.
    Bathan
  • ApolocApoloc Member Posts: 241 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2012
    The problem is IRE has pounded every single sort of God into the heads across all its games.  And it isn't a bad thing, but saying that a cult 'shouldn't be what we've had before.'  Ends up limiting people to well, Imperian hasn't had a 'Prospero' God of Wealth, so the freelancers are created.  They have not had a Scarlatti, so a Artistic God is created.  Matsuhama is created, etc.

    This isn't bad in my eyes, and I am also against the basic recreation of former Divinities, but I am OK with a consolidation of beliefs, take what you liked in part from previous gods, and bring the good things together, what you really want to roleplay, and leave the crap stuff out (Illuminas not allowing you to drink like that mattered, leave out Zanik's entire belief system because that was dumb) etc.

    I'd love something brand new that hasn't been in any IRE, but I honestly cannot come up with anything in my head that fits into it, that would not have ridiculous RL influence, and no base in the game.

    All in all, I think the Freelancers cult (which I am not apart of) is probably the most interesting to me so far, it's not super tied to any old beliefs.

    The most disgusting with the traction it has?  Shallah 2.0., that is personal opinion though.  

    As a note, the first cult I saw was 'Cult of Homies' which was started by, shocker here, Shukron.  While its deleted and oh god it was a funny joke, people knee jerk create stuff, and sometimes people knee-jerk support, knee jerk ideas.  A dangerous combination.

    Ultimately I'd love to see 'The Cult of Personality."
    image

    Naois
  • ZophaelZophael Member Posts: 5
    Yea, so if a cult gets enough followers a divine like entity might appear and RP with the cult? You're kidding. If that kind belief structure worked that Jesus guy would have shown up by now.

    Players need the kind of guidance that pre-established Orders provide. Asking players to come up with their own beliefs, and then agree on them, and then maybe a god type thing will show up is insane. If we had Cults and Orders I'd be 100% behind on that. 

    Players are dumb. Individual players are smart (sometimes) but expecting a player or players to come up with an entire belief system outside of their guild/city/council/personal feelings is crazy. 

    Jeremy, if you really wanted to revive Imperian, you could have done it without killing off all the gods (not to mention pissing some of them off, I'm sure, as the hundreds, if not thousands of hours they put into their roles you essentially threw away). There's no point killing all the gods when some were shitty, others were excellent (in regards to their RP and willingness to help), and now you've left everyone to pick up the pieces. Sure, you wanted to try something new, and maybe get players back. I've no doubt you made money over this, as people often had to buy credits to sell them to pay for the insane amount or gold this last event cost, or the current costs of what these cults cost. The recent prices on credit market are evident of this. 

    Bottom line: you're asking too much from the players that truly give a **** in the game, without giving them anything in return. It's known to everyone that you're hardcore combat, but it surprises me how little you know about some of the other workings of Imperian (Shards, for example, upon which you admitted you didn't know much about during your UStream). Combat doesn't drive RP in the way you think it does. Sure, the combatants have fun, and the non-combatants get pissed. Furthermore, the non-combatants are usually in game for RP, but when you destroy that by removing all the gods you're basically spitting in their face.  Additionally, this week long wait periods of nothing the past two weeks while y'all finish coding whatever you're doing next (I can assume that's the only explanation) is just lazy, and evident that you didn't have this planned out or prepared enough to truly follow through with it. Additionally, other valid RP requests/NPC interaction were being made and completely ignored during these dormant times.

    I give you all the credit in the world, Jeremy, as you've taken IRE a long way, and your low tolerance for bull **** is something I admire. Granted, I have no way of knowing how **** up or un-**** the Garden was before you stepped in, but this just seems a bit much. Personally, I felt Orders were one of the few established things in Imperian that worked, and that folks could always rely on when their city/guild went to **** due to some **** hat. The beliefs stayed the same, OH's changed rarely (though inactive ones was a problem) but you could always go Order RP and write some books, be in your own little world, and get patted on the back by your god for your good work. A divine favour always felt better than getting the next guild or city rank. Now that's gone, and our beliefs will be subject to y'alls (the garden's) approval if we expect to have a volunteer 'manifest' before us. 

    I'm not feeling it. 

    P.S. - I cuss, that's what I do. Don't take it as a '**** fit,' please.
    LionasDelrayneApolocKatarshKhizanKariZiatKiraGurnKaydenMiichelleNaois
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2012
    Having an opportunity to shape a cult based on the IC beliefs of a group of people is a good thing. The system is a bit clunky, and I'm not sure how I feel about it in the long-run, but this is a better way to handle beliefs than conforming to a particular God's idea of a role. I would be on board if religion fell down to making clans and choosing to believe in a particular way while a member; this system is that, but with the addition of some divine RP involved.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
    Kari
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2012
    @Zophael Our gods were archaic, and half of them, if not more, were dormant 90% of the time. That doesn't seem very established and rock solid to me. RP is literally everywhere you want it to be. You can't rely on massive events like Gods dying or NPC interaction anytime you want to roleplay. Sometimes it has to be completely player driven, and sometimes its as menial as having drinks with a few people and talking about turning your town into a vacation spot. Imperian can be as wide open or as small as you want it be. You just have to decide the route you want to take at that moment.

    Cults are a great way to gauge what the players are interested in worshipping now. Instead throwing some random new mechanic in there headed up by the Garden that may or not be to the players likings. And while many people have voiced that they don't want to see things like Shallah, Janus, Cass, etc...2.0, myself included, that doesn't stop you from being able to do that if you can get the support of enough players.

    We as a player base have all screamed for the reigns in shaping the world around us. This their way of giving us the reigns in the religious aspect of Imperian, don't spit in the face of someone giving you what you want. This is your chance to impact the world in a big way, for what is likely to be quite a while. Have fun with it, and try to be patient as this event comes to an end. I'm sure you'll be able to get your RP requests looked into once this massive event has come to a final end.

  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,184 admin
    @Zophael - I have no problem with not liking what happened with the game. However, you cannot break rules. Your account is banned.

  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Jeremy said:
    @Zophael - I have no problem with not liking what happened with the game. However, you cannot break rules. Your account is banned.
    Aww, won't even get to see my reply :(

  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,184 admin
    Okay, so as far as cults are concerned. I am right on the same page with people. We do not really want 2.0 cults being formed. Although, I do not want to automatically disqualify cults with similar themes from the old gods. If you are thinking about a similar themed cult, really think it out and make it unique and amazing.

    Attracting an entity to your cult will be hard. Without a doubt there will be many more cults without entities, then cults with entities. Most of our volunteers that will be playing the entities are looking for something fresh and new. Some of the cults that are popping up already have a very fresh feel to them and will probably have a better chance of getting an entity into them. Entities are probably not going to jump into a cult with only a few members and poorly thought out themes and ideas. Design your cult theme and files in such a way that you will have a lot of followers. This will help your chances of getting an entity.

    Cults with an entity will obviously have some benefits that we have not outlined yet.

    KhizanDelrayneApoloc
  • LalitanaLalitana Member Posts: 208 ✭✭✭
    I guess people can talk until they're blue in the face about how the old gods didn't fit Imperian, but it can't be shocking that there's a crop of "just give us the old one back, thanks" charters amidst the new/new to Imperian concepts. Are those going to fly if enough people are willing to support them? What happens if an entity isn't willing to be attracted to the resulting cult? Or does a cult only get approved if someone in the garden is willing to play ball/seasons 2.0?

    I'm also not keen on the inexplicably escalating gold cost - why should some cults cost more than others, or cost at all, especially on the heels of an event that involved multiple huge gold expenditures?  It's my hope that whatever this is a stepping stone to will be significantly more extensive and mechanically supported/involved - the cult system is less useful than a clan (no positions, and I'm sure it's missing a bunch of other mechanics), and more expensive besides.
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,184 admin
    Part of the reason for the gold cost is that we do not want a million cults.

    As I am the one that approves new cults, I will insist that similar themes from old orders will make an effort to have some changes to their fundamental beliefs as much as possible. Or at least do something to help make them more interesting. For example, I see a cult of Seasons. What can the cult do to make themselves more interesting? Annual rituals? Special beliefs? What? Maybe a focus on a single season instead?

    Cults can get approved without an entity. If the cult can thrive and grow, at some point a new volunteer (entity) may want to work with. Cults could be established for a loooooong time and never have an entity.

    Cults with an entity will have additional features that we are not going to expand on right now.

    BathanZiat
  • MercerMercer Member Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2012

    I know in the Order of Janus ,  someone was sacrificed every in game year at winter time as part of ritual

     

    I wouldn't want the Seasons cult to just be Order 2.0 though

  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2012
    Jeremy said:
    Okay, so as far as cults are concerned. I am right on the same page with people. We do not really want 2.0 cults being formed. Although, I do not want to automatically disqualify cults with similar themes from the old gods. If you are thinking about a similar themed cult, really think it out and make it unique and amazing.

    Attracting an entity to your cult will be hard. Without a doubt there will be many more cults without entities, then cults with entities. Most of our volunteers that will be playing the entities are looking for something fresh and new. Some of the cults that are popping up already have a very fresh feel to them and will probably have a better chance of getting an entity into them. Entities are probably not going to jump into a cult with only a few members and poorly thought out themes and ideas. Design your cult theme and files in such a way that you will have a lot of followers. This will help your chances of getting an entity.

    Cults with an entity will obviously have some benefits that we have not outlined yet.
    I am LESS comfortable with the cult system after having seen you post about it. This system seems like a wolf in sheep's clothing - you are essentially asking us to foot the responsibility of writing your new gods, then putting the responsibility of selecting a quality one on your celani/volunteers. While that looks cool on the surface, it really is just asking us to do work - and then asking people to wait for however long for an entity to finally decide your cult is cool. You yourself even admitted, there will be a lot of cults without an entity. How can you possibly feel justified in asking a player to spend 1 million gold on their idea, for a democratic organization.. that isn't even guaranteed to attract an entity/god? Didn't you, at one point, say that big orders without gods were totally uncool and unfun? This perpetuates that problem, except WAY more.

    I will hand it to you that Orders were very stale. However, this is only going to end up the same way, once the entities dry up. Did you honestly have to kill gods and orders, something that provided a great amount of roleplay, just because the themes of every god blew? You couldn't just off them in this event, then have every volunteer write a new one? I'm beyond confused with the line of thought used to justify the creation of the cult system - especially because you seem to be cool with 2.0 cults, with the caveat that they add 'new berry flavor!' or something equally as paltry. I would have just preferred a 'god reboot', where every god dies and we get new ones. That would have given us new, setting appropriate options.. without the baggage of a million gold fee and the requirement to do their work for them.

    EDIT: You could at least be WAY more forthcoming with details, concerning such a sensitive system. I understand you love to keep things behind the curtain, but certain things demand transparency and this is one of them - a lot of players are sore about losing their gods and orders. You could at least do them the service of explaining where we are going with this, what this is a stepping stone TO, etc. This isn't difficult.
    Bathan
  • SanaiSanai Member Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Just noting that while there might be cults without entities, they won't be very prosperous ones. More likely it'll be a couple people grinding away at it vainly, maybe a couple sitting around who don't know any better or don't care, while a significant number of people transfer over to ones with entities at the drop of a hat.

    I don't know. I feel like this system could be cool.. in another game, with different assumptions that could be made from the very start of the game.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sarrius said
    I am LESS comfortable with the cult system after having seen you post about it. This system seems like a wolf in sheep's clothing - you are essentially asking us to foot the responsibility of writing your new gods, then putting the responsibility of selecting a quality one on your celani/volunteers. While that looks cool on the surface, it really is just asking us to do work - and then asking people to wait for however long for an entity to finally decide your cult is cool. You yourself even admitted, there will be a lot of cults without an entity. How can you possibly feel justified in asking a player to spend 1 million gold on their idea, for a democratic organization.. that isn't even guaranteed to attract an entity/god? Didn't you, at one point, say that big orders without gods were totally uncool and unfun? This perpetuates that problem, except WAY more.

    What the cult system means is that if you really want to run with an idea that's solid and decently supported amongst the players but doesn't prove popular amongst the volunteers, then you can still have a system for it with powers, and rituals, and a player-chosen leader, and that if it's done well enough, you might attract a volunteer at later time.

    This is, imo, much better than "Here are your new gods, pick and choose!"

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    LionasApolocBathanSarrius
  • LalitanaLalitana Member Posts: 208 ✭✭✭
    Having a prohibitive cost didn't stop players from creating too many guilds - even with a much higher requirement for gold and signatures. And you argue in the same post that cults without entities could potentially grow and thrive. So the argument to limit cults with a prohibitive gold outlay doesn't, to me at least, pass the sniff test. Why, if they can supposedly function just fine without an entity around, does it matter if antimagick has 30 cults, and why should someone with what could arguably be a better idea pay more because they hit submit later? The gold escalation seems to value speed (and credit-selling) over quality of concept. I mean, it doesn't sound like you're going to drop the gold cost for Antimagick Cult #3 if Shallah 2.0 gets rejected.

    But I also agree with Sanai - those entity-less cults would end up with a couple of people trying to develop the roleplay in the vain effort to attract whatever volunteer might possibly be interested in going along with Random Concept X.


  • SanaiSanai Member Posts: 32 ✭✭

    Khizan said:

    What the cult system means is that if you really want to run with an idea that's solid and decently supported amongst the players but doesn't prove popular amongst the volunteers, then you can still have a system for it with powers, and rituals, and a player-chosen leader, and that if it's done well enough, you might attract a volunteer at later time.

    This is, imo, much better than "Here are your new gods, pick and choose!"

    Fair and granted, but on some level at least there's comfort in knowing what you're getting into before you do - as opposed to having an idea that seems perfect and pans out decently well, but doesn't actually go anywhere. Because, yes, divine interaction does matter to people, and even if the idea is thematically perfect it doesn't preclude bitterness when it gets passed up in favor of Cult of Totally Not A God 2.0. Even if you didn't want the person who passed you up anyway.
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    After discussing the cult system with somebody, I've concluded that the system is nothing but a step down for Imperian. We lost the ability to make organized religious structures with ranks, lost temples/congregation sites, we lost congregations, we lost actual god support unless one of them takes mercy on us, we lost pretty much everything.. to gain what? The ability to write our own themes? We could have simply had a 'pitch thread' and the volunteers gone with what they liked, we could have spruced up the order system, and added in conflict-driven mechanics to support it (I still support that Champions should have had something to do with gods, post-event.. but hey, whatever) - all we have done is take a giant step backwards, with a shiny coat of paint that makes all the people who want to stroke their creative egos think it is a tremendous innovation.
    BathanLionasDelrayneKhizan
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I honestly enjoy the system conceptually. While I don't think it was introduced all that well, that's probably more due to the fact that I'm becoming almost RPI in my old age.

    Being someone who complained for a long time that the concepts behind the Gods were incredibly flawed and poorly thought out, I welcome the chance, along with a large portion of the player base to try and do it better. What I find most neat about this tool is how much sense it makes. The player base pays to make in game items to customize their characters appearance, inventories and shops. The player base pays to customize houses and shops. I mean, this is just a logical progression. People are given the option to pay and design a religious fellowship.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
    Ziat
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The emphasis on belief systems, rather than on gods, is what makes the system most interesting to me.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
    DelrayneZiatJorachim
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