Seeking help about toxins.

MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭

Being fairly new to having to use toxins, I am struggling to find a proper technique to administer them. So far (with the aid of a few who have given me relevant information) I know certain toxins can be seen afflicted and cured, that ciguatoxin has a five second cooldown and can't be reapplyed if already on the target, and if going for a toxin lock that you have to try to stack certain afflicitons before others.I know as well as knight I am unable to give impatience so I can't truely lock them, but loshre has a means to lock them for that time being until they can focus. However, I do not know exactly which afflictions I should be trying to queue up before others, just the basic idea that certain ones should help eliminate others way to be cured.

I have a 2.11 sabre balance which I have been told is enough to be utilizing an effective means of toxin locking.  I simply request aid from anyone as to the strategy of applying a toxin lock, such as if I set an alias with dsl (target) $toxin1 $toxin2 in it, which combinations of toxins work well together and help add to the goal of getting close to a toxin lock.

Any help is appreciated in this endevour. I am really getting into learning all of this and enjoying what I have gained so far. Thank you and hope to hear from any of you soon.

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Comments

  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    Honestly, didn't know that tlocks were really doable anymore. They weren't that hard to pull off as sab with illusions against Whytes, but between so many classes having fitness, might, soulstorm, passive cures, etc, and Gbot being so damned effective, assumed that the only classes that could lock were sab/malig on people they'd already overwhelmed. Also assumed that by the time they got to the point of being able to stick a tlock, their kill method was ready. I'd be interested to see how it's possible as an RG. Edit: Sorry my input isn't very useful for you. If you're coding in Cmud and need help with a queueing system or anything, I can get you a set up with something relatively effective.
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  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭

    Using nexus with a simple [Toxin] in my prompt that checks through a list of elsif statments and sets $toxin1 and $toxin2 accordingly depending on which variables are set to true and which are false.

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  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    It's an uphill battle to begin with but once you break even on cures vs Affs it shifts pretty quickly in your favour. The main thing you'll need is an effective aff tracker. Without it you'll just be throwing darts at a target 50 feet away blindly. Once that's in place it's all about knowing priorities and which cures will be attempted over others. Little help on that regard would be 'AUTOCURING PRIORITIES RESET;AUTOCURING PRIORITIES LIST' that should give you the priorities of 80% if not more of the game. You either same cure overload, or some other higher priority overload, depending on what you want to stick/accomplish.

  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭
    Thank you, that should help me out a lot. Also, considering my class and what someone told me, I should more than likely try to stack herb/physical since runeguard lacks impatience.
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  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pretty much any affliction offense (ignore flickdancer, no one likes them or counts them) is using kelp stacks and working from there. Maidenhair is usually second. Good affliction offenses utilize oxalis well because most people can't/won't alter Garrynbot and eat themselves into off-bal for at least one dsl.
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    DelrayneMenochMathiaus
  • KyrockKyrock Member Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Some numbers (might be wrong on some cause I don't remember all the changes):
    plant balance: 2.25
    salve balance: 1.0, 4.5 restoration
    lovage: 1.0
    laurel: 2.0
    linseed: 3.0
    focus: 4.0
    purge: 15
    tree: 15 with survival recovery

    Obviously plant stacks are the way to go. It has the longest time unless you go for breaks. If you fight plant balance, purge, focus, tree, and rebounding you're looking at a need of (in affs/sec) 1/2.25 + 1/15 + 1/4 + 1/15 + 1/6 = 179/180 affs/sec. dsl delivers two toxins an attack so 2/x =179/180; x~= 2.01 second dsl. This is if you decide you want to battle focus. Taking out focusable toxins you decrease your enemies heal rate by 1 aff per 4 seconds. You stick hemotoxin and/or ciguatoxin, you reduce your enemies heal rate by 1 aff per 15 seconds an affliction. Mercury you increase your rate of affs per second by 1/6(rebounding). Just taking out focusable toxins alone you only need a 2.69 dsl. Making this decision is the -biggest- increase in effectiveness you can make.

    One thing that slows you down is duplicating toxins. If you afflict something that your enemy already has, then you have decrease your rate of affliction, so making a good toxin tracker is essential. I use to have a pair of toxins per f(1-12) macro and that worked out ok for me. You just have to imagine how people will normally heal and kind of map it out with your set up. But, it's not as effective as having a aff tracking system and a set up that will envenom good toxins as needed.

    The main tactic in the beginning, though, is slowing down there cure rate. You usually want to combine toxins in a way that make it easy to track and yet still effective. Like butisol, hemotoxin, mercury. These are easy to track because both hemo and but give third party messages when they are healed and afflicted so, if you see prompt after kelp, you know it cured mercury and can code off of that.

    P.S. Don't make a habit of believing people when they say you can't afflict. When they say that, it's only because they can't do it themselves.
    MathiausIniarVelion
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    @ahkan - I've been off and on about oxalis cause I don't normally know where to put it in the stack.

    @kyrock - this was a big help, since I wasn't sure on the dsl times needed and how to utilize getting to it. Thank you both.
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  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mathiaus said:
    @ahkan - I've been off and on about oxalis cause I don't normally know where to put it in the stack.
    First and only once, to eat an herb balance before your momentum starts.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
    MathiausVelion
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭
    @Lionas - Thanks. I'm guessing while it eats up that herb balance they try to heal with other means that set that on cool down and by the third combo it should be stacking, so I'm guessing.
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  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    The point of it is that it takes to herb balances to correct what Oxalis does. You use it at the start of a stack when they have no afflictions and they'll eat juniper and hyssop and be off of their herb balance when you DSL the second time. Not sure if you can use formaldehyde with a DSL, but if you did, it would eat tree balance on most people, so that would likely be a good first combo.
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    Velion
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭
    No formaldehyde on dsl unfortunately.
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  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    Ah. Well, I don't have a good understanding of when Gbot prefers touching tree over eating. If you can find a reliable way to trigger a tree early on, that'd be a good bet. Do you have any other way to afflict besides DSL or hit with any non toxin afflictions?
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  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    As a runeguard, you have a lot of options not open to other classes (shooting myself in the foot here). You'll be able to do the same things I can do in wytchen. 

    *Note: Your rune flare is probably going to be a little bit slower than your sabre, so you're not going to do this 100% of the time, aka strategy.

    Nairat: This rune flare is dumb and probably should not exist.
    Flare this rune, follow it up with ciguatoxin/hemotoxin. They're now locked with those two afflictions for the next two cure balances. They can't purge. They can't tree. Follow this up with PHYSICAL afflictions (because they can still focus). I'd probably start my kelp stack here, or you could push both and go mercury/metrazol.

    Wunjo (flare) w/ nairat on the ground:
    Transfix is a badass affliction. This is the bread and butter to the slutmonger flickdancing. Transfix shuts down tattoos and purge in one affliction. Once you get them unblind, you can easily flare wunjo into transfix.

    Eihwaz: Cock blocks rebounding so you can get in an extra dsl so it's:
    rsl/eihwaz, dsl dsl dsl? dsl? <-- 3/4 is a maybe

    instead of:
    rsl, dsl rsl

    If you want to switch to damage once you get them decently stacked, sowulu/pithahkan are amazing for health pressure. Since you're using a slower weapon, the rune flares won't be slowing you down. Go with a halberd. Men use halberds. Sissies use claymores. (I'm sorry Caelya, you're not a sissy.)

    Laguz and engage: EFF YOUR MOTHER, this is dumb. 

    Loshre: Less useful. You can't stick impatience and you don't have access to enough mental affs to really kill someone with this. There's some gimmicks in here (sticking stupidity/reckless/disloyalty) for longer than you normally would, but eh.

    DPS toxins. Most people don't use these. This makes them bad. Botulinum is badass. It's vomiting damage (which I think is noblock) and this adds up over time, not to mention starving them (I cleaved Brishi out through vomiting). Xeroderma is decent extra damage and gets noticeable once you lock in sensitivity. If they have it long enough, it paralyses and kills. When you're using sabres, these are going to be the bulk of the damage you put on someone. With nairat flares, you can make these stick for longer while you transition into burst.



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    JuranKyrockAzefelSeptus
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As a Runeguard, I would basically oxalis at any point that they have both blindness and deafness - which you will know because both are perfectly trackable watching herbs.

    You might find specific instances where this isn't true, but it would basically be my rule of thumb. In addition to being a single toxin that requires two herbs to 'cure', you can capitalize on blindness (transfix) and deafness (impale/bcry) in interesting ways if you're weaving it in as you go.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    Late entry. Someone removed the 'you can only hit one rune type per room' rule. Which is...god have mercy. There was a reason that rule existed. Anyways, you can capitalize on that (especially in teams).

    You can have your target hit nairat as many times as you want them to. Especially with oxalis. The only flaw here is the sketch balance > your dsl balance.


    Lightning-quick, you jab Aleutia's torso with a Souledge Sabre.
    A lash of black energy whips out from Aleutia's armour, striking you.
    Damage Taken: 1 cutting, mental (raw damage: 2) <-- Oh god, no.
    Aleutia's attention is grabbed and held by a nairat rune.


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  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭

    Mannaz helps with balance a bit, but from all the times I've used nairat/loshre on someone, I always see them cure out of things pretty quick. They should only be used sparingly with mannaz before hand.

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  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭

    All right, so far, I've managed to frustrate myself to getting the toxins that are trackable easily and struggling greatly to track the others (namely those in the kelp stack).

    Any advice on trying to track the others like arsenic, ether, etc?

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  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    You can do it one of two ways. A straight if/elseif statement that cures them in a priority of your choosing, or you can count the number of non 3rd party cure message kelp Affs and randomly select a number and curing the number it chooses. I've tried both methods and each have their caveats. Currently using the random picking method though. Note more coding is involved in this method for little or no noticeable gain. And I say you have two choices, there may be methods other people use that I don't know about. Kyrock uses advanced string theory probability or something(/sarcasm) that he posted while trying to work it out.

    VelionKyrock
  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    You could be keeping track of how many herb afflictions they have, how many afflictions possible in each herb type, how many can be focused/purged/etc and counting down each time you see that herb/focus/purge. Make sure that you only eliminate an herb when you're 100% it's gone. Peace/cigua when they attack, anorexia when they eat, etc. Say they have two orphine and a mandrake, they eat mandrake/focus/eat orphine. If you haven't afflicted during that time and you know for sure that they're 100% cured, you can eliminate everything. You could have a timer for around 3 seconds where if they don't eat an herb and you know they don't have anorexia, you can clear all herbs. You can watch and clear afflictions if they only have exactly one affliction on that herb type, and specifically only if they eat that herb. Then lastly, you could assume they're using default curing and clear high-priority afflictions if they're curing things like masochism. Taking priority into account is the only part of above system that is in any way variable, unless you're fighting someone with passive cures, so it's about the highest accuracy way to do it that I can imagine.

    I think, from what I understood of it, Kyrock's method was counting the number of times a cure was used, and calculating the chance that an affliction was still around based on the number of cures could have potentially cured it. Say you give someone dementia and keep afflicting with mental afflictions. You see them focus a few times, but you don't see them eat wormwood, you can't know for sure that they don't still have dementia until they've cured 100% of their afflictions, but you can make an educated guess if they've focused 10 times since then that it's more likely that they've cured it and still have whatever newer afflictions you've given.
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  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2013
    Don't forget using combat spam to determine what they do and do not have

    If they hit you, they're not paralysed.
    If they're smoking, they don't have asthma. Etc.

    This is sort of what is so shitty about Malignist/Wytchen. None of the mental afflictions have 3rd person messages and it's up to RNG what focus/tree/purge cure and you have no idea what it was.
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  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    I tried to use only once of those (usually arsenic) and, if they eat kelp and didn't give a visible curing message, they cured that one.

    Not totally reliable for sabs since the cobra could give additional kelp affs, but for you it should be enough.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Passive formaldehyde...all of the meh.
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    Zarim
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Labil said:
    I tried to use only once of those (usually arsenic) and, if they eat kelp and didn't give a visible curing message, they cured that one.

    Not totally reliable for sabs since the cobra could give additional kelp affs, but for you it should be enough.
    That doesn't really matter though, because the cobra afflictions aren't really being 'counted' in your tracker anyway. If you waste an affliction because of something the cobra gave, you're still doing fine.
    VelionMenoch
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭

    I was thinking of possibly using the ones I know work, and when I get to the kelp stack after at least sticking hemotoxin and making sure it sticks, just to add a queue of kelp afflctions and see how many times purge and kelp eaten occurs to eliminate what's probably stacked and go from there. It's more of a luck of the draw that way and just hoping the kelp stacks, but it's better that way so I can at least stick asthma and try to stick slickness too.

    The main problem I've run into is Nexus hates setting variables after using a #wait seconds command, and I've been struggling to find a roundabout way to get around it. Otherwise, I'm just limited by the client I use and have been attempting to learn other clients as well. Still attempting to have Nexus though till I learn how to code for another client.

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  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    I guess the #wait is for when you wait for herb/etc balance of your target?
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    yeah, I was wondering what you were using #wait on myself...

  • KyrockKyrock Member Posts: 35 ✭✭
    edited May 2013
    Solving the toxin duplication problem is important. Lets say you have a 2.0 dsl and you duplicate a toxin every other dsl. You would decrease your affliction rate by 1/4 which would negate the benefit of not using focusable toxins. So, don't do it mmmkay. If your offensive system can't 100% track afflictions or deal with the lack of knowing, then build a different one. My system will not inflict any toxin unless it's 100%...hrm that's not true, 98% sure that an affliction has been healed because duplicating toxins imo is that bad. 

    The more accurate you want and the more toxins you want to afflict, the harder it is to track. Start by mastering only one non-trackable aff per heal type. Mercury\hemo\butisol should be your only kelp healed toxins at the moment. Let your training on tracking start with cigua/metra or cigua/strych. Learn to use one of these sets and how to deal with tracking them. If you try to take everything all at once, you're problem solving for this is going to develop at a slow rate.

    Nexus uses javascript yes? Javascript has a date object that you can getTime() which gives the number of milliseconds from some constant date... You can use this in a linear fashion.

    function enemy(name){
    this.name = name || "";
    this.herbTime = 2.1;
    this.herbTimeStamp = 0;
    //other code
    }
    enemy.prototype = {
    ateHerb: function ateHerb(){
    var d = new Date();
    var timeDifference = (d.getTime() - this.herbTimeStamp) / 1000;
    if (timeDifference >= this.herbTime){
    this.herbTimeStamp = d.getTime();//since it has been determined that the length of time is sufficient between seeing the last plant eaten and this one, this will be the new reference point that we gauge the next plant eaten.
    //code that modifies data on good plant use via enemy.
    }
    }
    };


    Menoch
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 787 ✭✭✭✭
    Here's a really simple way to solve it.


    You have two toxins. It goes, DSL TARGET TOXIN1 TOXIN2

    Have TOXIN1 and TOXIN1 be on separate if/elseif strings that don't cross-toxins. Just by doing that, it solves toxin duplication.

  • KyrockKyrock Member Posts: 35 ✭✭
    you misunderstand the problem. If you have inflicted cigua/metra/strych and the enemy eats maidenhair, which of these toxins are healed? If you don't know for sure and guess cigua and then inflict cigua, when it was in fact not cigua that was healed, you have duplicated a toxin.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 787 ✭✭✭✭
    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh. My bad.


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